Problem with the Young template

[Seraphimpunk]

I'll go ahead and say there's a problem with the Young template.
its been used a bit more often in mods lately, without truly bringing down the deadliness of the encounter for the creature. When its used, i think stats should be presented. and problem areas worked over by writers. not heaped in the GM's lap.

some examples:

Young basilisk in Severing Ties (tier 1-2) CR 4, Young Pukwudgie in Sanos Abduction. (tier 3-4) CR 6 + adds

while on its surface, the young template removes some of the danger from a creature, when applied to. But it doesn't tone down the power of many of their abilities. It doesn't drop caster level, HD, and for creatures with nasty ranged attacks, it actually can increase their lethality, giving them a +3 to hit with them due to dex and size. And for basilisks it still retains a save or die mechanic in a CR 4 creature that was in a tier 1-2 encounter.

young template:

Young Creature (CR –1)
Quick Rules: +2 to all Dex-based rolls, –2 to all other rolls, –2 hp/HD.

Rebuild Rules: Size decrease by one category; AC reduce natural armor by –2 (minimum +0); Attacks decrease damage dice by 1 step; Ability Scores –4 Strength, –4 Con, +4 size bonus to Dex.

typical pukwudgie:

AC 20, touch 16, flat-footed 15 (+4 Dex, +1 dodge, +4 natural, +1 size)
hp 85 (9d10+36)
Fort +7, Ref +10, Will +10

Speed 30 ft.
Melee 2 claws +14 (1d4+2 plus poison DC 18 - 1d3 con/2 saves, 6 rounds)
Ranged 2 quills +14 (1d4+2 plus poison DC 18 - 1d3 con/2 saves, 6 rounds)
Special Attacks sneak attack +3d6, spawn undead
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 10th; concentration +14)
Constant—deathwatch, detect good, detect magic
At will—command undead (DC 16), produce flame
3/day—animate dead, death knell (DC 16), invisibility, ray of enfeeblement (DC 15), scare (DC 16)
1/day—nondetection (DC 17)

young pukwudgie:

AC 21, touch 19, flat-footed 13 (+6 Dex, +1 dodge, +2 natural, +2 size)
hp 67 (9d10+18)
Fort +5, Ref +12, Will +10

Speed 30 ft.
Melee 2 claws +17 (1d3 plus poison DC 16 - 1d3 con/2 saves, 6 rounds)
Ranged 2 quills +17 (1d3 plus poison DC 16 - 1d3 con/2 saves, 6 rounds)
Ranged Touch produce flame +17 (1d6+5 fire)
Special Attacks sneak attack +3d6, spawn undead
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 10th; concentration +14)
Constant—deathwatch, detect good, detect magic
At will—command undead (DC 16), produce flame
3/day—animate dead, death knell (DC 16), invisibility, ray of enfeeblement (DC 15), scare (DC 16)
1/day—nondetection (DC 17)

note how the CL of abilities is still high, the to hit bonus on its ranged attacks and melee are actually increased due to weapon finesse, and it still retains its 3d6 sneak attack, and the DC of all of its spells remain the same. The poison while slightly easier to resist, is still not a negligible DC.

I think the issue boils down to the young template not being enough sometimes If a young basilisk paralyzed a creature for 2d4 rounds, that would still be challenging and not be save or die. if a young pukwudgie had only 2d6 sneak attack and CL 8, and one save on the poison, that would tone down some of the nastiness. This requires a bit more thought, and an actual stat block for the creature, rather than just including references to a creature and the young template.

[Netopalis]

Agreed with the above. As a new GM, templating a creature was a real challenge to start with. While I can understand not wanting to fully stat a creature that is contained in the Bestiary, it makes running these games on the fly significantly harder for no real benefit. I also agree that the young template does little to really make some monsters easier - the first example above being a perfect one.

[Seraphimpunk]

Basilisk one is nasty too, if the GM misses that the gaze DC is con based. the young basilisk's save or suck DC is 13 vs. the adult's 15.

whats sad is i remember 5 years ago, pathfinder differentiating itself from D&D by trying to move away from save or die mechanics, since it sucks to sit there at a game and die instantly or be stuck in a combat out of commission from one bad save.

[Furious Kender]

I have never understood why scenarios don't write out stats for templated creatures or simply make up monsters like "Guard Basilisk".

I'd be thrilled to pay for 1 or 2 more pages if I didn't have to do this myself.

For example, I used to do LFR a lot. And as I learned from experience, for a new dm, prepping a 100 page LFR mod is simpler than a 20 page pfs mod.

[CRobledo]

Seraphimpunk wrote:

Basilisk one is nasty too, if the GM misses that the gaze DC is con based. the young basilisk's save or suck DC is 13 vs. the adult's 15.

Young template actually works quite well in this scenario, as the DC does go down with the subtier. If your GM misses that, well, it's not the scenario writer's fault.

I for one DO like that they don't have to print the statblocks anymore. More space for actual content. Keeps costs down (editors) so we make sure scenarios don't go up in price. Plus, when we did have all statblocks printed, half the time they were in multiple pages (pet peeve) which made it almost as much of a pain as not having them.

All you have to do as a GM is prep a bit more. For Severing Ties in specific, I made my own templated creatures doc. No split creatures, and all templating done.

[Christopher Rowe]

For what it's worth, prepping the scenarios (which I've only done twice so far, admittedly) is where I've learned most of the little I know about GMing the game to date. I kind of like having to do the template application and scripting the fights in advance according to proscribed tactics and effects in play and working up voices and creating portraits of the NPCs. Of course, I probably prep on at least a 1:1 prep:play time ratio, but that's just part of the hobby for me. Prep time is play time, not "work" time.

One interesting thing about that "young" template, it takes Medium creatures down to Small, which makes them a lot more subject to Intimidate checks from the PCs (assuming they're, y'know, "intimidatable" at all).

[Ron Lundeen]

A young basilisk has its DC drop by 2, as mentioned here. It also has just under 75% of the hit points and deals less than half the damage in melee.

The thing I find most amusing about a young basilisk is that, even though it's a size category smaller, it *still* contains enough blood to de-petrify 1d3 Medium creatures. Many abilities don't scale down well, but in this limited case, not scaling down well is a benefit to the PCs.

[WalterGM]

People haven't mentioned the [redacted] in The Blakros Matrimony.

Spoiler:

It's the difference between a shadow demon and a young shadow demon. The bullet points:

Regular demon -
59 HP
2 claws, +11 touch (1d6+1d6 cold)
1 bite, +11 touch (1d8+1d6 cold)
AC 18

Young demon -
45 HP
2 claws, +13 touch (1d4+1d6 cold)
1 bite, +13 touch (1d6+1d6 cold)
AC 20

The take away from this is that when the young template is applied to a creature that uses dexterity to determine it's attacks, it does not always reduce the CR by an accurate amount.

[Seraphimpunk]

the deadliness of a young basilisk doesn't come from its melee damage. or the DC of its save. it comes from instantly turning you to stone when you fail your save.

::plugs ears about blakros:: playing it tonight, don't wanna know. i'll check this thread after the holidays, when i might get to kill even more players with Severing Ties. fortunately not all 1st level characters this time.