Expiration times on equipment

[Matteo Falcone]

Old posts and a recent discussion lead me to question the reading of belts and headbands with stat bonuses. This is NOT an upgrade issue, but one of expiration of stat abilities derived from an item. EG, a Belt of Mighty Constitution reads:
*.Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the belt is worn.*
To me this reads as : the temporary increase and the magic of the belt fade after 24 hours of being worn (even when sleeping, unconscious,dead, etc).
There are a few item with this sentence in the descriptor. What came up in the recent discussion with a couple of very experienced GMs is that the effects become permanent after 24 hours of the PC wearing the belt and if your PC removes the belt, the 24 hours restarts the countdown to permanent. It never fades in power.
Also, if the abilities (as implied in other messages) are permanently added to the PC abilities (no longer dependent upon the belt being worn)after 24 hours, then simply buying a stock of, for example, Belts of Constitution would inevitably make you a Constitution monster.
So, how valid are these claims?
Moreover, what is the correct reading for PFS where no one is there to mark the time that you wear your 24 hour item? Essentially, this makes a 24 hour item permanent by default.

[Netopalis]

As I read it, it is the first 24 hours of the belt's wear overall, meaning that it fades in time and does not replenish itself automatically. The average belt will not be worn for a period greater than 24 hours on a regular basis, so allowing this to regrant its ability would likely lead to some situations of vast overpowering.

[Alexander_Damocles]

It counts as temporary for the first 24 hours, then becomes permanent and allows for feat selection etc. If someone who has a greater history for the game (3.X) could let me know why it is worded that way, I'll give ya a cookie.

[Matteo Falcone]

Situations where it might be worn longer may include being transported as a corpse back to Absolom for resurrection. Or if the ability lost by removing the belt or having it fade would cause the death (like lost Con) of an injured PC. Extreme circumstances, I know, but not unlikely in PFS.

[BigNorseWolf]

*handwave* this is not the medieval immersion slice of life problem you're looking for *handwave*

By all means, shower, just don't try to cheese the system by swapping out headbands of intellect for instant associate degrees in odd topics.

[kinevon]

Please, take a breath, use line breaks. Makes it easier to read. You can also use the various formatting commands available, like bold, italics, and quoting.

Now, to answer your questions:

Quote:

Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the belt is worn.

What this means is that, for the first 24 hours a stat enhancing item, in this instance, a Belt of Mighty Constitution, is worn, all it does is serve as a boost to hit points, skill checks, Fort save, and other things that would also be boosted by being the recipient of a Bear's Endurance spell.

After the initial 24 hour time period, the stat enhancement is treated as permanent while the belt continues to be worn. Things that that can affect would be things that the new stat would give, like extra round(s) of Rage for a Barbarian, or access to feats that require a certain minimum level of said stat which is higher than your inherent stat.

Now, if, for some reason, the belt gets removed from the PC, he loses the extra points to his stat, and, when he puts it back on, there is a new 24 hour period where the stat boost is treated as temporary instead of permanent.

Note that wearing two Belts of Mighty Constitution will not stack, as they both provide an enhancement bonus to Constitution, so only the higher one will apply, or choose one at random, if they have the same enhancement level.

Examples of benefits from wearing a stat boosting item, when the stat boost is treated as a permanent boost instead of temporary:

• More spell slots for a caster when their primary stat gets enhanced
  
• More Channels for a Cleric when their Charisma get enhanced
  
• Early access to certain feats with minimum stat requirements, examples follow
  
• improved Precise Shot, before your inherent Dex reaches 19
  
• Power Attack, if your inherent Str is under 13
  
• Two-Weapon Fighting Feats
  
• Selective Channeling, if your inherent Charisma is below 13
  

For PFS purposes, purchasing a stat boosting item between scenarios/modules leaves a PC in the state, at the beginning of the next scenario or module they play, of having the boost considered permanent, so they get the extra spells, extra rounds of Rage, etc.

Again, for any PF purpose, if the item gets removed during a scenario or module, the boost goes away, any benefits from the boost get negated, and putting the item back on restarts the 24 hour countdown. During that 24 hours, the extra spells, rounds of rage, or feats unlocked by the higher stat are not available until the item has been worn for a continuous 24 hours.

For the purposes of most game sessions, other than a few rare scenarios or modules where there is no time pressure and the PCs have some place safe to camp out for 24 hours, none of the benefits of the enhanced stat will be available.

But, again, the stat boost again gets treated as permanent for purposes of those little extras, between the end of the scenario/module it was removed and the beginning of the next scenario or module played with that PC.

Note Bene: How this rule will interact with the apparent sanctioning of APs for PFS play, and playing through an AP with a PFS legal PC, is as yet unknown. At this point in time, unless I missed an announcement somewhere, all the clue we have to APs being sanctioned is a link in the PFS Products area, with no image attached yet, with the title Sanctioned APs, which links to sales links for the first 4 books of the Shattered Star AP, and the Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition AP.

I would point toward Mike Brock's expected Monday Blog post for what this is about, but that is pure speculation, at this point.

[Matteo Falcone]

Thanks, Kinevon, for that lucid response. However, this line has me wondering still:

*After the initial 24 hour time period, the stat enhancement is treated as permanent while the belt continues to be worn.*

Why? Poor language in the descriptor? Nothing in the descriptor relates anything about permanency or conditions after 24 hours. To me facts not in evidence are wishful thinking on the part of PCs. However, I like it better than the additive value implied by getting the increase added to the PC ability permanently without the belt.

[kinevon]

Matteo Falcone wrote:

Thanks, Kinevon, for that lucid response. However, this line has me wondering still:

*After the initial 24 hour time period, the stat enhancement is treated as permanent while the belt continues to be worn.*

Why? Poor language in the descriptor? Nothing in the descriptor relates anything about permanency or conditions after 24 hours. To me facts not in evidence are wishful thinking on the part of PCs. However, I like it better than the additive value implied by getting the increase added to the PC ability permanently without the belt.

Permanent stat enhancements add to things that temporary enhancements don't.

Bear's Endurance can move your PC's Constitution up by 4 points, giving you, during its 1 minute/caster level duration, an additional 2 hit points per level. However, as a temporary enhancement, it does not add 2 rounds to the number of rounds a Barbarian can Rage.

During the first 24 hours a stat enhancer item is worn/equipped, it only adds the same bonuses as the spell that was used to create it. After that 24 hour period, and only continuing as long as the item is equipped continuously, you gain the full benefits as though your stat were at the new total, including, as appropriate, extra rounds of Rage, extra bonus spells, more Channel Energies, etc.

Strength base: 12
with Bull's Strength: 12+4, but can only gain those things allowed by 12, does not qualify for Power Attack
With Belt of Giant's Strength +2: 12+2 for the first 24 hours, no Power Attack
After 24 hours, treated as 14, so eligible for Power Attack

Hope that explains it, it isn't poor language, it is just some people not understanding the difference in how stat boosts get treated for short- and long-term boosts.

[Sniggevert]

Matteo Falcone wrote:

Thanks, Kinevon, for that lucid response. However, this line has me wondering still:

*After the initial 24 hour time period, the stat enhancement is treated as permanent while the belt continues to be worn.*

Why? Poor language in the descriptor? Nothing in the descriptor relates anything about permanency or conditions after 24 hours. To me facts not in evidence are wishful thinking on the part of PCs. However, I like it better than the additive value implied by getting the increase added to the PC ability permanently without the belt.

This bit is not actually listed in the item description, but under the definition of ability bonuses here

PRD wrote:

Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.

[Jeffrey Fox]

Matteo Falcone wrote:

Thanks, Kinevon, for that lucid response. However, this line has me wondering still:

*After the initial 24 hour time period, the stat enhancement is treated as permanent while the belt continues to be worn.*

Why? Poor language in the descriptor? Nothing in the descriptor relates anything about permanency or conditions after 24 hours. To me facts not in evidence are wishful thinking on the part of PCs. However, I like it better than the additive value implied by getting the increase added to the PC ability permanently without the belt.

Its not just wishful thinking.

Quote:

This belt's golden buckle depicts a bear. The belt grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Constitution of +2, +4, or +6.Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the belt is worn.

So the belt grants an enhancement bonus to con. Which for the first 24 hours is temporary. After the 24 hours you still have the bonus to con because that is what the item provides while being worn. It is also no longer conisdered temporary bonus. Also since the duration of the bonus is longer then 24 hours the bonus is considered permanent.

Ability Scores Bonuses, Glossary wrote:

Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.

I hope this helps clear up any confusion.

Edit: ninja'd