I was laying here in bed when a thought occurred to me. If your pc has higher than average attributes, should you increase their cr rating? They are more dangerous than a run of the mill npc and some attributes can easily reach 20 or more.
Any thoughts?
I do it based on how good the party(players) are, not what stats they have. I try to not make it too much more difficult though, or else it defeats the purpose of me giving them a 20 point buy instead of a 15 point buy.
Some people say that if you use 25-point buy then you should count your party at APL+1.
I'm not really sure I agree with that though.
I think group composition is far more important than point-buy score. 25-points allow players to make more well-rounded characters. Maybe a 16 is raised to a 17 or maybe even 18, but more often the extra points are used to raise those 8s to 10 and the 10s to 12/13. Maybe get another 14 or 16.
15 points still allow them to minmax and maybe more so, because they might feel like they have to now.
I just fail to see how that's worth an entire level.
I'd be with wraith on this, if they're just breezing through your APL+2 encounters without breaking a sweat try APL+3 and then +4 even for harder fights.
If they struggle with the APL+2 already, maybe make the mook encounters APL+1 or +0.
And if you throw in high APL encounters and aren't sure if they make it, have a contingency plan for when you overdid it, so you don't cause a TPK on something that you thought should have been easy. Maybe the badguys don't kill them but take them prisoner. Prison break time. Tada, new plot hook.
One of the jobs of the GM is to gauge how easy a party is having it against the CR for their APL, and adjust.
There's no set criteria or method on this, since their dominance can depend on anything from good playing, to the right combination of magic items, to how well the PCs are designed against the type of campaign it is, to higher-than-average ability scores, all of these, or anything in between.
This is why it is best for the GM to be as involved as he can with the PCs. He needs to know them well, and know well how they work together.
Once you see what they can handle, and you've seen them in action a good number of times, it is easy enough to add another monster, or to add +2 to your rolls (GM's best friend), or give the bad guy an extra spell, or lay a trap somewhere, whatever. After all is said and done, if it feels like the added challenge raised the CR, sure, go right ahead and award the party as if they had overcome the higher CR.
Not a problem.
I was laying here in bed when a thought occurred to me. If your pc has higher than average attributes, should you increase their cr rating? They are more dangerous than a run of the mill npc and some attributes can easily reach 20 or more.
Any thoughts?
If you're playing a standard game (15 PB) then NPCs with heroic class levels have the same PB (nonheroic have 3 point buy). However, not even 25 point buy will produce enough of a change to raise their CR meaningfully.
Look at it like this. A heroic classed PC has a CR equal to level-1. Then they get +1 CR for having PC wealth. Even 10 extra points on the point buy aren't going to mean much. Meanwhile the Advanced template adds +4 to all ability scores and +2 natural armor for a +1 CR. Hmm...
By 'Hmm...' do you mean there may be something to my line of thought, or did I miss something?
By 'Hmm...' do you mean there may be something to my line of thought, or did I miss something?
No, by "Hmm..." they mean "A +4 to all attributes, plus an extra +2 natural armor, is only worth +1 CR, so clearly a point-buy change is so insignificant that it couldn't possibly affect CR". Did you not read the sentence before the "Hmm..." or realize what it implied?
By 'Hmm...' do you mean there may be something to my line of thought, or did I miss something?
You missed "However, not even 25 point buy will produce enough of a change to raise their CR meaningfully."
Ah! I figured that. I was curious if there was something else, because when I use 'hmmm' it is a moment of thought on a subject, if not an aside, or even to reconsider something I had said.
I have to apologize about not being specific about my question though. I am not using a point buy system. We are rolling dice.
My question, to be more specific, is If you add all your stats together and they equal greater than say 90-95 would that constitute a greater CR?
The reason I ask this is, if you take a human from the bestiary at a CR 1/2 then most all their attributes will be less than 15.
If you roll one up as an NPC or a PC then it is possible to get as high as 18 before bonuses from race. This is the example I ask about.
Sum of attributes being 90 can be done on a 30 PB. Which is unusually high for a point-buy, but remember that the Advanced template turns the humble 15/14/13/12/10/8 attribute set into a 68 PB and grants +2 natural armor - and even that is still only worth +1 CR.
If the stats are still small enough that you're still calling it a point-buy and not "screw it, just give them 24's in everything", then it's not enough to impact CR.
If you are asking should the party face higher CR's without an increase in XP then I would say that defeats the purpose of being allowed the higher score, since the fights are not really any easier.
If you are asking do high ability scores increase an NPC's CR then I would say yes if they go up high enough.
I never called it a point buy system and I apologize again if I gave that impression.
As far as for PC or NPC, I would have to say I am fluid on the ruling.
A slightly on topic question...True Azlants get a +2 to every attribute, so by rolling it is possible to get (though not likely) to get 20 on all attributes. This could make a total score (by adding them all together) 120. .... What is the CR of a true Azlant?
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High stats can be one of the factors to take into account. You've really got to have a feel for how your group plays. I've had characters who needed the higher stats just to survive level appropriate encounters while other players did way more with less.
I think True Azlants should probably have a CR of about 1.5. They're better, but not obscenely better to the point where I'd count every one of them as being worth two of anyone else.
I never called it a point buy system and I apologize again if I gave that impression.
As far as for PC or NPC, I would have to say I am fluid on the ruling.A slightly on topic question...True Azlants get a +2 to every attribute, so by rolling it is possible to get (though not likely) to get 20 on all attributes. This could make a total score (by adding them all together) 120. .... What is the CR of a true Azlant?
They are still not as good as drow nobles and they only get a operate at CR=PC class level or CR=NPC class level -1.
You are also not supposed to roll for NPC's so that further muddies the waters. If the NPC had really high stats and additional wealth then I increase the CR.
It is just easier to follow the book.
Very true. It was a stray thought I had that I had to ask is all.
Very true. It was a stray thought I had that I had to ask is all.
hah! i totally brought this up a while ago when i posted an azlanti race build using the ARG and it cost 27 points...which is almost LA +2, well no system is perfect. [personal opinion] unless there was a guy with all 18s (and even then its negotiable) you really don't need to adjust CR to much except maybe at the very early levels and then my experience has been that the baddies tend to catch up pretty quickly.[/personal opinion]
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I like the idea of giving a higher point buy and then restricting the ability to dump stats say to only one at -8. That way the players can build characters that are little more socially capable/have more skill options, but don't actually conflict heavily with the assumed 15 point buy of the CR system, it would also helps the comparative power level of MAD classes out a little bit.
I would caution determining level adjustment based off of the Race Builder points values. It's possible to build a extremely strong character with a very limited points expenditure, and a comparatively weak one with a very high expenditure.
Race builder point values paint Humans as a relatively weak race.
Race builder point values are basically worthless for determining balance.
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Race builder point values paint Humans as a relatively weak race.
Race builder point values are basically worthless for determining balance.
The funny thing is though that comparative to some of the other abilities you can buy (i.e. Greater Spell Resistance for 3pts, Swift for 1pt and Greater Defensive Training for 4) Skilled and Bonus feat aren't even under-costed .
Race Builder is fun for build NPC races and trying out concepts. The strength of the race is best determined by play-testing.
The funny thing is though that comparative to some of the other abilities you can buy (i.e. Greater Spell Resistance for 3pts, Swift for 1pt and Greater Defensive Training for 4) Skilled and Bonus feat aren't even under-costed .
True, but a lot of other minor abilities are over-costed by comparison, and the non-human core races have a lot of those.
well i did say no system is perfect and i include the CR system in that category.
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The funny thing is though that comparative to some of the other abilities you can buy (i.e. Greater Spell Resistance for 3pts, Swift for 1pt and Greater Defensive Training for 4) Skilled and Bonus feat aren't even under-costed .True, but a lot of other minor abilities are over-costed by comparison, and the non-human core races have a lot of those.
Yeah, it's more like there's no real consistency amongst pricing, there's a fire sale on the good stuff and for some reason the month old clams haven't been moved to the discount bin.
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Check monster/ NPC vs table 1-1 in Beasairy 1 Page 291. And deside for yourself.