In the Missing Tropes thread, posited the following action movie cliche that is hard to recreate in d20:
Don't move or I'll shoot! AKA One false move and the elf gets it.
Think of all the movies where one character holds a blade to another chacter's throat, or where one group is held at gun/arrow point.
Dramatic dialogue & intense pressure ensues.
Yet in d20, if you have the drop on an opponent, your only good choice is to attack hard or lose the advantage.
The OP of that thread asked that if an idea takes off, to make a new thread for it and leave that one for listing more missing ideas.
These are some of the comments:
Combat manuver: Hostage. You roll to hit, then stop just short. Add the potential damage to your bluff. If your hostage has initiative on you they can grapple.
Withholding an Attack: Whenever you perform a standard action that lets you make a single weapon attack against a single target, you may choose to retroactively withhold that attack after seeing the results of your attack roll and weapon damage roll. If you withhold your attack, you can apply the results of your withheld attack at any time as an immediate action. You lose your withheld attack if you perform any standard or full-round action, or if you become unable to make your attack against your intended target for any reason.
How about, if you catch an opponent when it is flat-footed or denied its Dexterity modifier to AC, you threaten a critical hit (but need to confirm it normally).
To which Umbral Reaver pointed out:
Improved invisibility for unlimited crits?
Readied Coup-de-Grace: As a full-round action you can ready to make a single attack against a single target that is standing still. You must designate the target and the intended attack when you take the action.
If you get to make the attack and the target is within melee range (or, if you're using a bow, gun or crossbow, adjacent), you automatically threaten. In addition, if the target takes damage from the attack it must make a fortitude save (DC10+damage taken) or die.
You cannot do a readied coup-de-grace if threatened, and if you're at any time threatened between when you take the action and when the attack occurs, treat it as a normal attack instead.
I think it might come down to the "rocket tag" principle in-game; winning initiative becomes tremendously important, especially for survival in a surprise/held-action/crit. maneuver like this one.
This "Getting the Drop on Someone" has come up in other games. I wouldn't mind a do-able PF feat.
My tuppence:
In order to make this work, I think two things are needed.
1) There needs to be a limited set of circumstances where getting hit by an attack would have significantly dire consequences.
2) There needs to be a way to potentially hold the advantage of those circumstances while engaging in dialogue.
The details of the two ways are up for design.
This is my idea:
1) If the defender is unaware that there are hostile creatures in attacking range or is unaware that a nearby creature is hostile, the defender's state is "unaware". In this case, the attacker may make a single attack without moving as if the defender were "flatfooted", plus that attack automatically threatens a critical if it hits.
(Unseen creatures that have displayed their hostility would not trigger this state. The PC who has secretly been working for the villain would trigger this state.)
2) With an opposed skill check, the attacker can hold the attack and reveal his presence/hostility. As long as the attacker only takes 5 foot steps and free actions, and continues to threaten the defender, he can make the single attack as described above.
The opposed skill check can be a game time judgement call based on the situation, but Bluff/Intimidate vs. Will or Stealth vs. Perception might be good options.
The defender player can also initiate an attempt to break out of the "unaware" state by an opposed Bluff check of their own.
Happy to hear more brainstorming ideas.
Drat! I thought this was going to be a forum game. Oh well...I shoot the elf!
We're actually dealing with two things here: Hold-up and Take Hostage.
The Intimidate skill probably plays a role in both. If you don't accept the threat as credible or have nerves of steel and you win initiative, then the hostage situation or hold-up can be ineffective. Example 1. Example 2.
I don't suggest using a maneuver. That mechanic should be reserved for "attack-like actions where size is a benefit rather than a hindrance." The grapply part of Take Hostage should just be resolved as a grapple — a troll will have a much easier time taking a human hostage than another troll. Come to think of it, take hostage might meet my criterion for a maneuver, but hold-up definitely does not.
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I'd say this is something that should be using rules for readied actions. Maybe the rare exception that allows you to ready a CdG, based on "if they try anything, slit throat". The CdG-nominee may elect to continue counting as "helpless" or try to escape (which triggers the CdG though).
You could then still rescue someone, by readying an action to liberate the target in response to the CdG attempt, then having another ally trigger (distract) the hostage taker.
For example: troll's got a helpless wizard by the neck. "Humies move, then I crush wizzy neck."
Party negotiates with the troll for a while. Paralysis on the wizard wears off. He readies to use Shift in response to the troll trying to crush his neck, and winks at the rogue. The rogue makes a sudden move, troll's ready action triggers, that triggers the wizard's ready action to Shift, and he's away.
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Even without a new rule, you can still hold hostages by means of a trap or other mechanical device.
Lock someone in a guillotine, then ready an action to drop the blade? Or use a rope and pulley to suspend them over a pit of acid sharks, then just hold the rope? You can let go of a rope as a free action, right?
Anyway, I don't think we really need a "hostage-taking" mechanic. Taking hostages should be something villains do, not players. And tabletop games are a very different medium than movies; they don't need to worry about becoming more movie-like when they could instead embrace and exploit what makes them different.
Yeah, I think it would just be the BBEG taking a readied action to attack with a knife/gun and speaking out loud.
Notice this trope rarely works on hero-types, just low level kids and bystanders.
Yeah, I think it would just be the BBEG taking a readied action to attack with a knife/gun and speaking out loud.
Notice this trope rarely works on hero-types, just low level kids and bystanders.
Don't forget about heroes' loved ones! This is where the drama really starts!
Don't forget about heroes' loved ones! This is where the drama really starts!Yeah, I think it would just be the BBEG taking a readied action to attack with a knife/gun and speaking out loud.
Notice this trope rarely works on hero-types, just low level kids and bystanders.
It's also a great way for Lawrence Dobson to get shot in the eye.
Anyway, I don't think we really need a "hostage-taking" mechanic. Taking hostages should be something villains do, not players. And tabletop games are a very different medium than movies; they don't need to worry about becoming more movie-like when they could instead embrace and exploit what makes them different.
Ouch! I seem to be encountering this a lot today. I don't get this restrictive view. You are talking about characters that wander the world wielding weapons and dire magicks and who kill their enemies quite a bit. To say they won't occasionally take hostages is preposterous. PCs are villains to all the monsters they slay, whatever their creed, or alignment for that matter.
And what if the PCs are evil aligned, like those catered for in the Way of the Wicked Adventure Path?(Sorry Silent Saturn if this seems narky. I'm still getting over being told the idea of undead druids is "stupid" and "not thought through".)
For what it's worth, if anybody/thing/character (regardless of which side of the apocryphal GM screen they sit on) wishes to do the old "don't move or the grumpy old wolf gets it" I vote for Eric Morton/Epic Meepo's mechanic. Short, sharp, simple. ;)