Goblin Squad Member
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Roleplay-wise: It could totally happen. I will punch someone if it's of the Good alignment because seriously: Racism does not strike me as being of the good alignment.
Just my opinion. As long as there's just one of each. I'd hate for there to be 5 human only, 3 dwarf-only, and then suddenly no one wants you ugly half-orcs. Honestly, I hope the race specific chartered companies don't happen.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was just thinking of setting up plans for a Chartered Company of "half-breeds" only. Half-orc, half-elf, and halflings totally count because they are half of a normal person. 8I
On the subject of "racism =/= good", there's a word for that. Delusions! You could be fully good in every way and just look down on other races for not being as "good", a la the common depiction of elves being haughty and self centered.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My personal oppinion is one race that looks down on another by it's race without checking for exceptions to the rule is overall mean spirited. Without factoring in outsiders etc... there are almost certainly a handful of good orcs that may be nicer than your average human.
That being said it I have no problem with it as a concept. In general I consider the idea very counterproductive for any society and essentially creating a handicap for their own development (IE holding onto a freeloader just because he is race X, while denying a chance to a hard worker because he is race Y.
Now would I hold any opposition onto a group soley based on their racial exclusions or inclusions... probably not. If the coin is... uhh whatever color coin is going to be, I'll work for and with anyone, but would I ever even consider joining a group, nah, I don't mind giving myself an RP handicap, just ask my aquaphobic cleric I played, but I'm not a fan of the style of character that makes that sort of generalization.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One of my favorite DDO guild names: Bob's Mental Midgets - a halfling only guild where all characters had to have "Bob" somewhere in their name.
No moderator ever made them change their name, but I had to change the name of my "Kick the Midget" event that we played during Warforged Nights. So unfair...we just changed it to "Punt the Pygmy" though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In my campaign, half elves are second class citizens, and half orcs are treated like dirt. It's an effective plot device, especially since, say, half orcs decide to stage a revolution and half elves, much like the underground railroad, provide strategic help against the existing government.
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I honestly adore racism in a fantasy setting.
Of course there will be those progressive do-gooders who's settlements look like Jim Henson's creature shop, with everything from Dwarves to Half Orcs living side by side- just waiting till the day that kobolds and goblins and tieflings are available for play so they can be invited in too.
Then at the other end of the spectrum, I really do hope we see racial alliances or settlements that forbid a certain race. I would love to see an alliance of dwarves and gnomes that don't let outsiders into their place. I would love to see a tribe of ferocious half orcs.
I think both types of settlements have their place. One is not better than the other- diversity is the best solution.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No problems with it conceptualy...even for Charted Companies of the "Good" alignment. For example when I played LOTRO, I was in a "Rohirrim" based kinship. One of the requirements for membership is that your character had to be a "Rohirrim". This wasn't a "We hate other races and we're superior" type thing....we had alliances with and friends with lots of individiduals and groups that weren't "Rohirrim"....this was a "We're a Role-Play based group, so your character better have a darn good back-story as to why he/she would be riding around in one of Theoden's Eored's" type thing. Technicaly, that would leave the door open for other races if the player was able to come up with a sufficiently plausable background story to support it....and I think we had an official membership clause that the requirement could be waived in specific cases based upon vote...but that it applied as a general rule.
I don't see any reason why a similar dynamic couldn't be in place in PFO.
Part of an RPG is being able to seperate the character from the player and the real world from the setting for the campaign. There are lots of campaign settings where a certain degree of racism makes sense.
For example in a Middle Earth based campaign...would it really make sense for a Gondorian or Elven or Rohirrim based company to accept orcs or even half-orcs? I think not because those races really were twisted and shaped by Shadow in that setting....they couldn't be accepted trusted because they didn't really completely posses free will of thier own.
Edit: Also remember that "bias" is simply one aspect of an individuals, organizations or societies personalties/attributes. Even if it's a negative trait, the existance of one or even several negative traits shouldn't define the organizations alignment overall....it's the sum of all traits that will do that. E.G. Even Abraham Lincoln exhibited a certain degree of personal bias, yet if one had to define him in D&D alignment terms, I'm willing to bet most people would put him under "Good".
It wouldn't be racism or segregation, it would be homogenization. Race-only groups exist in every game I've ever played, and probably every game I haven't. There's nothing wrong with it in game or out of game. It's roleplaying a homogenized group, nothing more.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It wouldn't be racism or segregation, it would be homogenization. Race-only groups exist in every game I've ever played, and probably every game I haven't. There's nothing wrong with it in game or out of game. It's roleplaying a homogenized group, nothing more.
That's only really true if the group isn't particularly derogatory or scornful of other races. That's where the "racism" thing comes out. In a real world setting it sucks, sure, but it's more interesting when the races are actually different, and not just different varieties of human. Like, if it's just a group of elves, that doesn't change much. But if it's a group of elves who think they're better than the "lesser races" and are constantly trying to prove so, or diminish what other races have done...well, then it's a little more than just a homogenized group.
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Y'know... this makes me think... Some humans consider different variations of human as different races, while others go "Hey, we're all human."
Makes me wonder, would races in a fantasy setting do something similar? Would there be some elves, dwarves, halflings, and humans that all consider each other just varieties of the same "race?"
Sorry, off topic. >_>
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Goblin Squad Member
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Y'know... this makes me think... Some humans consider different variations of human as different races, while others go "Hey, we're all human."
Makes me wonder, would races in a fantasy setting do something similar? Would there be some elves, dwarves, halflings, and humans that all consider each other just varieties of the same "race?"Sorry, off topic. >_>
That's actually a great point, not really off topic at all =)
Considering the drastic differences between some races, an individual or group would have to be pretty accepting, deluded, etc. to think something like that. I mean, I don't think I've ever heard of an elf running around trying to help his "short, bearded, drunken brothers." (Although I could see a super religious cleric running around trying to convert everyone. "Despite our differences, we are all the children of god!")
On the other hand, it would make for a great personality quirk! I think a character like that would be really fun to play or interact with.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Y'know... this makes me think... Some humans consider different variations of human as different races, while others go "Hey, we're all human."
Makes me wonder, would races in a fantasy setting do something similar? Would there be some elves, dwarves, halflings, and humans that all consider each other just varieties of the same "race?"Sorry, off topic. >_>
It does indeed make you wonder.
Fantasy aside, would we consider the other members of the homo genus to be different species if they were still alive today? Wikipedia lists 14 different species under the genus homo, although there is some controversy over whether at least one of them was merely a small family with a medical condition, so 13 maybe 14.
It makes you wonder and it makes you wonder if it will come up for real as more and more genetic evidence points to the fact that at least one of those species has somewhat lived on. According to recent genetic evidence all humans, except those of pure African descent, are at least part neanderthal: 3-6%. That percentage may grow some more as we continue to map the neanderthal's DNA.
In fantasy terms that means black people are the only pure humans, and the rest of us are some mix of half orc with a little more human than orc in the mix.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Y'know... this makes me think... Some humans consider different variations of human as different races, while others go "Hey, we're all human."
Makes me wonder, would races in a fantasy setting do something similar? Would there be some elves, dwarves, halflings, and humans that all consider each other just varieties of the same "race?"Sorry, off topic. >_>
It does indeed make you wonder.
Fantasy aside, would we consider the other members of the homo genus to be different species if they were still alive today? Wikipedia lists 14 different species under the genus homo, although there is some controversy over whether at least one of them was merely a small family with a medical condition, so 13 maybe 14.
It makes you wonder and it makes you wonder if it will come up for real as more and more genetic evidence points to the fact that at least one of those species has somewhat lived on. According to recent genetic evidence all humans, except those of pure African descent, are at least part neanderthal: 3-6%. That percentage may grow some more as we continue to map the neanderthal's DNA.
In fantasy terms that means black people are the only pure humans, and the rest of us are some mix of half orc with a little more human than orc in the mix.
There's also the odd fact that large amounts of tiny humanoid bones have been discovered on islands, not children but fully grown. I remember the article stating that they were similar in size to Tolkien's hobbits. Really makes you wonder how many peoples existed at some point or another that were incredibly close to our fantasy races of today.
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Well, the way I see it, in many ways a halfling isn't that much more different from a human than the average person is from someone with dwarfism. Both of the latter two are still completely human, but look quite different.
Having grown up in a world entirely composed of humans, perhaps we see greater differences between fantasy races than they would having grown up in a world where they are plentiful.
The standard races would probably all agree that orcs are substantially different from themselves (then again, with the possibility of half-orcs...), some if not all of the standard races could just see each other as no different than someone of Nordic ancestry on Earth would view someone with Bantu, or Amazonian ancestry.
Would an Ulfen human think himself to be more closely related to a dwarf or someone from Garund?
The only time we can comfortably (with varying definitions of "comfort") split hairs is when we get into biology - but even that is thrown into question with all the half-orcs and half-elves running amok.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think its important to remember that any alternate race is almost certainly going to think of its race as the "true race" and all others as the Other. Much like we see in human cultures, even in the simplest and most benign devisions (sports teams, by easy example). As each thinks of it as the "Home" race, not all races are necessarily going to be xenophobic genocidal maniacs. As each race is made ultimately of individuals, factions along the spectrum should be prevalent.
A halfling thinks of itself not as half a man, but as a whole halfling, nimble and quick among the lumbering Tallfolk.
According to recent genetic evidence all humans, except those of pure African descent, are at least part neanderthal: 3-6%. That percentage may grow some more as we continue to map the neanderthal's DNA.
In fantasy terms that means black people are the only pure humans, and the rest of us are some mix of half orc with a little more human than orc in the mix.
/neanderthal grunt of approval
I think its important to remember that any alternate race is almost certainly going to think of its race as the "true race"
Yup. I think the name of every native american tribe translates into "the people." As in, THE people.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There's also the odd fact that large amounts of tiny humanoid bones have been discovered on islands, not children but fully grown. I remember the article stating that they were similar in size to Tolkien's hobbits. Really makes you wonder how many peoples existed at some point or another that were incredibly close to our fantasy races of today.
That's the controversial 14th I was talking about. "Homo floresiensis". The reason that find is controversial is the proportions alone can be explained by medical conditions tied to inbreeding, a common issue on small islands like where these bones were found. But rather than scrutinize the remains to test that theory, the group who found them have locked them up and refused to let others have a second look at them. It's been requested that they scrape a small sample off the bones so others can attempt DNA testing to see whether homo florensiensis is a new species, or just home sapiens with a medical condition, and the owners have stubbornly refused to let anybody see or do anything with them. My own personal opinion based on what I've read is it's just a medical condition. Thyroid problems resulting in endemic cretenism or Laron syndrome (genetic disorder) seem to be the most popular suggestions for that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, naturally. But would they view themselves as being an entirely different species or as variations of each other (with the individual's race being the "original," naturally ^_-)?
Well, consider the issue of origins. The races of fantasy consider themselves to be different origins, as opposed to the homo species who all have a common ancestor. Dwarves, elves and halflings are all of fey descent - ultimately from an entirely different plane of existence. A biologist would look at them and humans and then at orcs and then start writing all kinds of papers about parallel evolution, like how in non fantasy the octopus evolved an eye extremely similar to the eyes of vertebrates, but did so going down a completely different evolutionary path that branched off before even the most primitive eyes existed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... all humans, except those of pure African descent, are at least part neanderthal: 3-6%
And then there's the recent discovery that there's some Denisovan DNA in our genes. Or were they the questionable 14th?
That's the controversial 14th I was talking about. "Homo floresiensis".
Ah... Glad I waited to hit "Submit" :)
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Hahaha, the Philosophy of Fantastic Racism. It would make an excellent thesis paper.
As for the origin issue, it is questionable whether races would remember that after enough time has passed, or if they did whether or not they would view it as myth. Even so, the fact that humans and elves, despite apparently coming from very different evolutionary lines, are still capable of producing offspring - and ones that aren't sterile at that! Octopus eyes are one thing. Viable mating is entirely another. Sure, a significant amount of suspension of disbelief is called for (particularly from anthropologists and biologists), but given how rare it is for a closely related species on Earth to be able to reproduce together... If I was an elf on Golarion, if I (perhaps also parents or grandparents) hadn't come from the other dimension myself, I'd be fairly quick to write it off as a fairy tale.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ya, as far as purely evolutionary creation, I'd say the only way to get the end result of humans and elves that can produce offspring is through divine tinkering.
Unless... start with humans, or a common ancestor of humans and the sub fey, take one and transplant into the feywild and leave it there for a few hundred thousand years, then bring it back. Then you get something genetically closer as well as an explanation for the different "origins". As long as the chromosomes behave and no centromeres suddenly split forming telomeres and thus separate chromosomes (as is one of the main reasons humans can't reproduce with chimps) then one wouldn't expect enough genetic drift over a period like that to make them sexually incompatible. If the move between planes is an exodus initiated by the elves' ancestors, then you can even pull it all off without divine intervention.
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Goblin Squad Member
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RE: The "Race" vs "Species" thing....you guys are looking at it a lens of modern thinking, using pretty scientific terms. In most fantasy settings, popular sentiment isn't going to aquire that level of taxanomic sophistication.
They are going to regard the "other" according to thier own peoples mythic traditions of that particular group....and depending upon the setting they may actualy be empiricaly correct (e.g. X race was created by God A, but Y and Z ethinic groups were both created by God B).
Even in real world history...in periods where scientific methodology was not heavly present in society you see that sort of thing present.
For example, during part of the Middle Ages, it was officialy not considered a "sin" to kill Saracens...because Saracens were quite litteraly NOT considered to be Men...but rather creatures in the guise of men born of Devils. Of course at the same time it was also believed that flies spontaneously generated from rotting meat and mice from grain.
One good reason for an organization to be limited to a single race would be if it is family based -- basically, you have to be one of the founder's children or grandchildren to be a member. This works best if the race in question is not human.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Travis Williams of the late White Wolf magazine, the one that eventually became White Wolf Publishing once wrote an interesting polemic on what he called crypto-racism in how races are created and portrayed in fantasy games. In particular he focused how dark skin races are represented as evil in disproportionate numbers such as orcs and his favorite axe to grind, the drow.Hahaha, the Philosophy of Fantastic Racism. It would make an excellent thesis paper.
Most fantasy systems I've seen portray Orcs and Goblinoids as green skinned. Would seem to kinda throw a bit of a monkey wrench in that thesis, wouldn't it?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think uneducated superstitious people which would comprise most general population of even the "civilized" regions of Golarion. Even at the best of times they would be very wary of anyone who acts or looks different than themselves...and that is at the best of times, when there is no reason to assume anyone means you harm or blame anyone for unexplainable misgivings. In times of hardship, I think travelling through the "civilized" countryside would be a risky proposition.