Alright I kind of wanted my big baddy in my game to be a Dhampir Cruoromancer/Undead Lord but upon looking at the abilities and such he would not be getting much and even less if I "theurged" So I was stalking around for some people that had any homebrew fixes to help me not gimp my "Super" villain.
I came a crossed the GD over the Mystic Threuge and was reading a lot of things but no one found anything that didn't seem too over powered or still lacked in the end.
I came a crossed this sight that details a whole PF multiclass spell caster fix.
Pathfinder Spellcaster Multiclassing House Rule by 'Who ever posted it.'
I can't seem to find the author of the post. I do, however, know the DM that seem to come up with this name is Paul as it is stated there. So the idea goes to these two as it is not mine I am merely a conduit and very interested in its in game balance.
So let me know what you think. And if you find it would break your game table. While I do not promote. Extensive multiclassing or 'dipping' I do think this could be useful for not only my NPC but if PCs want to fill gaps in the small party we have.
With that said I was thinking of adding in the class you may choose only one class to gain this benefit for each primary casting class your have. For example a Wizard 2/Druid 2/Cleric 2 would all cast as if they were 3rd level. While this may not seem out of place except it gives spells perday and I think having them choose that adds the benefit is more balancing. If that is not confusing enough for you.
Look forward to this discussion let me know what you think.
So hopefully everyone is just reading the rule?
actually really like the idea of partially stacking spell levels, but if you implemented this rule for players as well it could lead to some pretty dangerous magus builds built around dipping and broad study. i admit this is speculation but i wouldn't be surprised.
"However, you may not take your total caster level higher than double what it would otherwise be."
I assume this is meant to mean that you may not get more than double your actual class level in casting ability at all (and not just caster level). So a Fig10/Sor1 casts as a Sor2, not as a Sor6 for slots and spell access but only CL2.
I don't think that rule will break anything as long as you disallow +caster level gains from PRCs. Otherwise it'll get broken in no-time.
"However, you may not take your total caster level higher than double what it would otherwise be."
I assume this is meant to mean that you may not get more than double your actual class level in casting ability at all (and not just caster level). So a Fig10/Sor1 casts as a Sor2, not as a Sor6 for slots and spell access but only CL2.I don't think that rule will break anything as long as you disallow +caster level gains from PRCs. Otherwise it'll get broken in no-time.
Well intrestingly enough they address that. They state that if it gives +to casterlevel then it only counts for that and not in addtion too. As to make sure that the reason they are losing those is for reason. So a PrC that already does this does it through that and base classes and PrC that don't do so through this ruling.
I thought about allowing it as a favored class option. Such as a Fighter4/Wizard 2 would take this favored class option for his levels of fighter. For example: its would be +1/2 to casterlevel and spells perday and known(when applicable)to a primary casting class that is not this class.
So for his Wizard levels he takes whatever he wants and then for his fighter levels instead of taking +1 hp or skill or and racial one he instead takes this. The restriction of no more then x2 your class level but this would allow him to be a 4th level fighter and a 3rd level wizard for spells and a 2nd in all other respects.
I find this would be great except for caster/caster class. For example a wizard 5/Cleric 5 would be an effective 7/7 for spells using the normal method. But using mine whichever class started as the 1st level wizard would have to take +1/2 to cleric without having levels in it. Although this could represent some form of apprenticing in the other casting class.
Sounds like a good rule, Jester. Not bad at all in fact. The top spellcasting ability I could see coming out of this would be something like this:
Primary Secondary
19 2
18 4
17 6
16 8
15 10
14 12
13 13
12 14
11 14
10 15
And that's at level 20 - where it doesn't look that imposing at all.
Having it as a favored class bonus also means you can't use it to get a bonus in the caster prc's too (with the linked rule rather than yours, a Wiz9/Rang1/AA10 would cast as a level 19 wiz, with favored class, as a 16th). I think that's good since those PRC's are already balanced with casters in mind (losing only one caster level to get +6 BAB, higher hit dice, far better saves, and backup archery is a little too good in my book)
I've seen versions of this rule mentioned with slight variations, but seeing all spelled out this way...I think it's brilliant. The more I think about the implications and reverberations, the more I see they are only positive.
I liked it and as my players tend to Shy away form casting for whatever reason I feel it will be a rule I am house-ruling for most Casting NPCs really anyway. But as to make it fair anything I allow NPCs to take I allow PCs so this needed to be finalized.
The only problem I see is Non-spell boosting PrCs would end up gimping casters that go into them. But I don't see a big issue as I as a Wizard am not going to try and get into Duelist and expect not to be gimped in many ways.
And yeah the point being that a Wiz 5/Clr 5/MT 10 would be effective 15th in both and only 5 in the 2 base classes. And as with this a both base classes would be 10th and gain the benefits there of and be only 15th in both as well not much different except the road there is not as hard.
And the end isn't under powered but also doesn't seem over powered.
This works acceptably well (removing mystic theurge, etc.), but I prefer the much simpler solution of from the 3.5 Unearthed Arcana (and the SRD). Essentially, just stack casting classes for purposes of caster level (only, no increased spells per day).
This way any dual-caster casts at full level, but doesn't get free spells per day. SR issues go away, effectiveness goes way up, without vastly changing the classes. It also works with or without prestige classes like mystic theurge (a Wiz5/Clr5 is different but equivalent to a Wiz3/Clr3/MTh4).
And yeah the point being that a Wiz 5/Clr 5/MT 10 would be effective 15th in both and only 5 in the 2 base classes. And as with this a both base classes would be 10th and gain the benefits there of and be only 15th in both as well not much different except the road there is not as hard.
To be fair, at 20th level, I think a core mystic theurge is more powerful than this multiclass rule. However, that's the strongest level for a mystic theurge - and I'd much rather have your rule during levels 2-15.
I'm not even sure it would be broken to allow the mystic theurge with your favored class variant anyway. At most, we're looking at CL17/CL15 vs 17/13 or 15/15 in core. It's strong, but not sure it would be broken compared to the good ol' 20 straight.
This works acceptably well (removing mystic theurge, etc.), but I prefer the much simpler solution of from the 3.5 Unearthed Arcana (and the SRD). Essentially, just stack casting classes for purposes of caster level (only, no increased spells per day).
This way any dual-caster casts at full level, but doesn't get free spells per day. SR issues go away, effectiveness goes way up, without vastly changing the classes. It also works with or without prestige classes like mystic theurge (a Wiz5/Clr5 is different but equivalent to a Wiz3/Clr3/MTh4).
I have read this and while it makes sense. Seeing as just because you stop pursuing the abilities within that class does not mean your potential casting remains stagnate or would not increase at lest by some degree. BUT by that logic then why would your ability to cast new spells and of higher level not be available. Think about it, doesn't make much sense to say: "I am a Warrior Wizard and I took no time out of my life to continue study in magic after I started fighting but some how I grow more powerful and now I can cast low spells as if I was a high caster but never unlocked the potential for higher spells because that's not important." When of course it would be.
Not saying I don't like the Magic Rating system in fact I was about to call it quits and use it when I stumbled on to this in the first place.
In this version with my tweak it shows that even in the pursuits of another occupation you still are trying to stay fresh and learn new things along side it. As represented by spending your favored class option to do so. This also cost something instead of getting it for free. I mean even if I was going to allow the Magic Rating you presented I was still going to require them to use there favored class option to obtain it.
To be fair, at 20th level, I think a core mystic theurge is more powerful than this multiclass rule. However, that's the strongest level for a mystic theurge - and I'd much rather have your rule during levels 2-15.
I'm not even sure it would be broken to allow the mystic theurge with your favored class variant anyway. At most, we're looking at CL17/CL15 vs 17/13 or 15/15 in core. It's strong, but not sure it would be broken compared to the good ol' 20 straight.
I think you would be right 20th vs. 20th but so often do games get there. And as much as we like to think they will what if they didn't then all you did was waste time in the background being sub-par and while your character had flavor he never had anything to back him up.
I am guessing you feel that the Mystic Thuerge's class granted abilities is what makes it more powerful?
Now that I feel that I plan on using this as a houserule in my game. I was wondering if anyone thought it would be over powered to allow the Mystic Theurge's class abilities as Feats available to those that wish to take them. For example do something like:
You are skilled at transferring both arcane and divine magic to suit your needs.
Prerequisite: Ability to cast 3rd level divine spells, Ability to cast 3rd level arcane spells
Benefit: A Caster can prepare and cast spells from one of his spellcasting classes using the available slots from any of his other spellcasting classes. Spells prepared or cast in this way take up a slot one level higher than they originally occupied. This ability cannot be used to cast a spell at a lower level if that spell exists on both spell lists. The caster can prepare 1st-level or 2nd-level spells from one of his spellcasting classes using the 2nd-level or 3rd-level slots, respectively, of the other spellcasting class. The components of these spells do not change, but they otherwise follow the rules for the spellcasting class used to cast the spell. Spontaneous spellcasters can only select spells that they have prepared that day using non-spontaneous classes for this ability, even if the spells have already been cast. For example, a cleric/sorcerer can use this ability to spontaneously cast a bless spell using a 2nd-level sorcerer spell slot, if the character had a prepared bless spell using a 1st-level cleric spell slot, even if that spell had already been cast that day.
Special: Wizards may select this as a wizard's bonus feat.
Just to illustrate the rest of the feats for anyone that does want to use them or for anyone planning to come back to this thread and give there opinion on if they feel this is overpowered.
You are skilled at transferring both arcane and divine magic to suit your needs to a higher degree then most.
Prerequisite: Ability to cast 5th level divine spells, Ability to cast 5th level arcane spells
Benefit: This functions exactly like Combine Spells Feat except that the caster may now apply it to 3rd and 4th level spells.
Special: Wizards may select this as a wizard's bonus feat.
You are skilled at transferring both arcane and divine magic to suit your needs to a higher degree then most.
Prerequisite: Ability to cast 6th level divine spells, Ability to cast 6th level arcane spells
Benefit: This functions exactly like Combine Spells Feat except that the caster may now apply it to 5th level spells.
Special: Wizards may select this as a wizard's bonus feat.
You have mastered the art of using both arcane and divine magic so that you may blend the two seamlessly.
Prerequisite: Ability to cast divine spells, Ability to cast arcane spells, Knowledge (religion) 18 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 18 ranks
Benefit: Select two spellcasting classes, such as Wizard and Cleric. You can cast two spells, one from each of your spellcasting classes, using one action. Both of the spells must have the same casting time. You can make any decisions concerning the spells independently. Any target affected by both of the spells takes a –2 penalty on saves made against each spell. You receive a +2 bonus on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance with these two spells. You may use this ability once per day.
Special: Wizards may select this as a wizard's bonus feat.
With the requirements I have set in place a character wouldn't be able to take each feat barring wizards bonus feats until:
9th for Combine Spells
13th for Improved Combine Spells
17th for Greater Combine Spells
19th for Spell Synthesis
making them the last feats you will take most likely and I feel that if you want to do what the Thuerge does then you can take feats to do so. Although in some respects you get them earlier in other you wouldn't. As the abilities would be gained earlier with the PrC, with the exception of combine spells (2nd level), which is nice plus you wouldn't have had to take feats. But I feel sense I am disallowing this class given the ruling on multiclassing spellcasters and the favored class option I am implementing for it. I feel this is a fair trade for the power to take your base classes to 10th level in each. And nothing says you have to take these feats but they are there.
I am guessing you feel that the Mystic Thuerge's class granted abilities is what makes it more powerful?
No, the casting. A prep/prep mystic theurge tops out at 9th level main spells and 7th level secondary spells - your multiclass rule tops out at 9th main, 3rd secondary or 7th main 7th secondary.
I am guessing you feel that the Mystic Thuerge's class granted abilities is what makes it more powerful?No, the casting. A prep/prep mystic theurge tops out at 9th level main spells and 7th level secondary spells - your multiclass rule tops out at 9th main, 3rd secondary or 7th main 7th secondary.
Hmm i thought given that he would be an effective 15/15 caster he would get 8th in both...
The the 15 from 10 base class in both and 5 bonus from half of his other levels. Thanks to taking the favored class in the opposite each level. Meaning it would be on par with Mystic sense he is also 15/15 if he takes 5/5/10 using the PrC
Mine would top out at 9th level and 6th level spells going 14/6 prep/prep
Because you have to remain even to get the benefit and you can't go more then x2 your level so he would be a 17/12 caster with bonuses added. 14+(6*.5)/6+[(14*.5)<6)] = 14+3/6+6= 17/12
I am guessing you feel that the Mystic Thuerge's class granted abilities is what makes it more powerful?No, the casting. A prep/prep mystic theurge tops out at 9th level main spells and 7th level secondary spells - your multiclass rule tops out at 9th main, 3rd secondary or 7th main 7th secondary.Hmm i thought given that he would be an effective 15/15 caster he would get 8th in both...
The the 15 from 10 base class in both and 5 bonus from half of his other levels. Thanks to taking the favored class in the opposite each level. Meaning it would be on par with Mystic sense he is also 15/15 if he takes 5/5/10 using the PrC
.
You only get favored class bonuses with one class (unless half-elf). So if you're not half-elf, if you want 15 levels wizard for example, you can at most get 5 levels cleric and only +5 levels from favored class. Or you can go Wiz13/Cle7+6 for a total or 13/13, compared to 15/15 from mystic theurge.
Though most people I've seen talk about MT seem to go for a major and a minor casting class, ending up at 17/13 rather than 15/15.
Does human not get 2 as well? And yes i suppose i see your point i was under the impression you got a favored class bonus every level haha how stupid of me. And yes most do go for the optimum build to give them 9th level spells but i find it odd to go through the work to be sub-par with one casting class and decent with the other and gain no real class benifit.
Edit: No humans don't and i suppose he could do well as a half-elf if i really wanted to optimize him.
I liked it and as my players tend to Shy away form casting for whatever reason I feel it will be a rule I am house-ruling for most Casting NPCs really anyway. But as to make it fair anything I allow NPCs to take I allow PCs so this needed to be finalized.
The only problem I see is Non-spell boosting PrCs would end up gimping casters that go into them. But I don't see a big issue as I as a Wizard am not going to try and get into Duelist and expect not to be gimped in many ways.
And yeah the point being that a Wiz 5/Clr 5/MT 10 would be effective 15th in both and only 5 in the 2 base classes. And as with this a both base classes would be 10th and gain the benefits there of and be only 15th in both as well not much different except the road there is not as hard.
And the end isn't under powered but also doesn't seem over powered.
I might be misunderstanding you, but it seems that you may have misinterpreted an aspect of this "rule": That PrCs don't feed into the casting ability.
I thought so for a moment myself, but what it says is that:
"Any prestige class that adds caster levels to a primary spellcasting class (such as Arcane Archer or Dragon Disciple) only adds the caster levels specifically listed, you can’t count it (for the class it adds to) for the purposes of this rule."
Meaning you don't get double feed into the class it adds to. So, Arcane Archer 10 adds 7 levels of spellcasting to one of your casting classes, but you don't also get 5 levels on top.
It seems clear from the examples that PrCs give the same 1 for 2 level as Base classes do in all other ways.
-Cheers
PS: I think the Mystic Theurge feat chain is totally warranted.
I might be misunderstanding you, but it seems that you may have misinterpreted an aspect of this "rule": That PrCs don't feed into the casting ability.
I thought so for a moment myself, but what it says is that:
"Any prestige class that adds caster levels to a primary spellcasting class (such as Arcane Archer or Dragon Disciple) only adds the caster levels specifically listed, you can’t count it (for the class it adds to) for the purposes of this rule."
Meaning you don't get double feed into the class it adds to. So, Arcane Archer 10 adds 7 levels of spellcasting to one of your casting classes, but you don't also get 5 levels on top.
It seems clear from the examples that PrCs give the same 1 for 2 level as Base classes do in all other ways.
-Cheers
PS: I think the Mystic Theurge feat chain is totally warranted.
No i understood that part it was favored classing i was having a meltdown with apparently. I still think this needs work i want to feel it is more on par witht the MT then under it.
And yeah i did like the idea of the MT feats as the class was going away.
Here is the thing i think it would get WAY out of control the standard way even if PrC do like they do in the examples.
Check this out going back to my first example wiz 2/Drd 2/Clr 2. This would be powerful without limitijg how many classes add into your class. Lets speed things up. At 18th level they would be 6/6/6 but caster wise they would be 12/12/12 caster thats 6th level spells with three classes seems overpowered to me. Worse lets tack on another class such as witch and now go for 6/6/4/4 thats 12/12/8/8 thats 6thit levle spells with two classes and 4th with two more. Losts of spells to throw it about.
Next lets say i did the favores class option as well wizard and i took it for cleric assuming i am not a half-elf. So i am 13th level now and feel its time to take the cleric levels. So next level i take clr 1 and i am casting loke a 2nd level cleric. I take another and i am casting as a 4th the growth seems too fast.
Finally lets say i require you to choose two classes while multiclassing between these two classes half of you level up to x2 that classes level count for each opposite class for determining spells perday and known as well as CL. Which is basicly the same thing as they have written but i require you to chose two class that have this benefit. So if you chose fighter and wizard half your fighter level apply up to two times you wizard level. And your half your wizard levels would apply if your fighter had casting but sense he doesn't only the wizard side gains the bonus. Only base classes can be chosen for this ability.
Sounds like i should make it a feat instead.
At 18th level they would be 6/6/6 but caster wise they would be 12/12/12 caster thats 6th level spells with three classes seems overpowered to me. Worse lets tack on another class such as witch and now go for 6/6/4/4 thats 12/12/8/8 thats 6thit levle spells with two classes and 4th with two more. Losts of spells to throw it about.
It's definately a LOT of spells, but they're not going to be powerful. Like the current mystical theurge, you'll be most useful as a backup caster, using buffs, pulling tricks out of your sleeve and generally always having the right tool for the job - as long as it's not a lack of time, as in combat. In addition you'll be more MAD.
An empSorc/Dru/Clr 6/6/6 will be quite SAD, which is nice, but still, a good round it will throw out something like Heal + Quickened Heroism.
Meanwhile, an empSorc 18 can do this: linky
You'll be extremely versatile and can keep going for days and days, but in raw power, you fall short by a WIDE margin.
A friend and I invented this rule almost exactly as it is on the linked page while discussing the way the Tome of Battle handles multiclass initiators.
The only tiny difference is in the prestige class part.
I would rule that prestige classes grant you the highest of the multiclass spellcasting bonus OR their listed spellcasting, whichever is higher. That works out the same most of the time, but it means you can never get your spellcasting increase delayed a level because you took a prestige class instead of an extra fighter level.
Jester, I was also considering making the Theurge's abilities available as feats, but I never get around to writing them down.
I think the only real losses from this rule are classes like the Arcane Trickster and the Rage Prophet, which don't work with this rule but do things it just can't. I haven't quite worked out what to do about that, if anything.
At 18th level they would be 6/6/6 but caster wise they would be 12/12/12 caster thats 6th level spells with three classes seems overpowered to me. Worse lets tack on another class such as witch and now go for 6/6/4/4 thats 12/12/8/8 thats 6thit levle spells with two classes and 4th with two more. Losts of spells to throw it about.It's definately a LOT of spells, but they're not going to be powerful. Like the current mystical theurge, you'll be most useful as a backup caster, using buffs, pulling tricks out of your sleeve and generally always having the right tool for the job - as long as it's not a lack of time, as in combat. In addition you'll be more MAD.
An empSorc/Dru/Clr 6/6/6 will be quite SAD, which is nice, but still, a good round it will throw out something like Heal + Quickened Heroism.
Meanwhile, an empSorc 18 can do this: linky
You'll be extremely versatile and can keep going for days and days, but in raw power, you fall short by a WIDE margin.
Exactly, we must remember that you can only cast one (or two) spells per round. Versatility does not necessarily equal power.
And Jester, if you are truly concerned about super stacking spellcaster builds then it's easy to just say you have to choose which class each bonus spellcasting level stacks with. Similar to the way PrC that grant spellcasting levels work.
I see absolutely no problem with stacking as many different classes as you like. Well, I say absolutely none, but it might even be a little too weak.
Having looked closely at those feats, I have to say I like them, but I feel they're too restrictive. Why not remove the references to arcane and divine and replace them with spell levels or caster levels in two different classes? Divorced as they are from their original context, there's really nothing about the abilities that wouldn't feel right for any pair of casting classes.
I see absolutely no problem with stacking as many different classes as you like. Well, I say absolutely none, but it might even be a little too weak.
Having looked closely at those feats, I have to say I like them, but I feel they're too restrictive. Why not remove the references to arcane and divine and replace them with spell levels or caster levels in two different classes? Divorced as they are from their original context, there's really nothing about the abilities that wouldn't feel right for any pair of casting classes.
Agreed. In fact, I would also engineer them to be available a couple levels (or more) sooner than outlined by Jester.
I just fix the entire multiclassing system, because I hate the way multiclassing works in 3.0/3.5/Pathfinder.
Hey, I (aka mxyzplk) run Geek Related and I'm glad to see others are interested in our house rule, I just noticed the visitors from here. It's been working great for us. It lets combo builds (like the rogue/oracle in our current campaign) be less worthless. We haven't seen any abuse of it yet - heck, all character optimizers know that as soon as you've lost more than about one caster level you're out of the race.
Awesome. I have a couple of questions for you though.
Do you do anything else to make arcane trickster style builds more viable? As I understand the rule, a rogue 10/wizard 10 ends up with 5 fewer sneak attack dice than a rogue 5/wizard 5/trickster 10 would?
And do you have power issues around level 4? Seems like you're getting a lot for very little around then.
Awesome. I have a couple of questions for you though.
Do you do anything else to make arcane trickster style builds more viable? As I understand the rule, a rogue 10/wizard 10 ends up with 5 fewer sneak attack dice than a rogue 5/wizard 5/trickster 10 would?
And do you have power issues around level 4? Seems like you're getting a lot for very little around then.
Not per se, though players find ways. We have an Oracle/Rogue in our current Jade Regent campaign who uses an oracle power to stack levels for sneak attack. Spellcasting level is the main thing that kept sticking out to us as the killer in multiclassing so we fixed the biggest problem first - nothing after that as come up. (Plus, 20th level characters are a myth, they exist only for CharOp purposes.)
Level 4 tends not to last long; we haven't seen anyone outclassing anyone else around there based on these rules. If you're multiclassed already at low levels the action economy tends to limit you anyway. The differential is so narrow - even if you considered a wiz2/ftr2 to be fully equivalent to a wiz3/ftr2 using these rules, I still wouldn't feel comfortable betting on them vs. a ftr4 or wiz4. It makes a suboptimal choice less suboptimal, it certainly doesn't make it better.
Thanks.
I was thinking more of, say, a wizard 2/cleric 2. You'd be casting as a wizard 3/cleric 3 and there's not that much difference between 3rd level prepared casting and 4th.