At second level due you gain full hp of the second class or the second level hp of the new class?
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For every hit die past your first, you gain the average-plus-one of the class you gain, not the maximized.
The only time you gain the first level hit points of a class is when you take that class as your first character level class.
At all other times, you only gain the leveling hit points for whatever class you take.
Indeed, max HP is only for character level 1, not the first level of each class.
Jiggy wrote: Indeed, max HP is only for character level 1, not the first level of each class. which means a Fighter/Rogue (1/1) has one more HP than a Rogue/Fighter (1/1). (the first character having gotten 10 HP then added 5, the second having gotten 8 HP then added 6).
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nosig wrote: Jiggy wrote: Indeed, max HP is only for character level 1, not the first level of each class. which means a Fighter/Rogue (1/1) has one more HP than a Rogue/Fighter (1/1). (the first character having gotten 10 HP then added 5, the second having gotten 8 HP then added 6). One thing I like in PFRPG, is that Fighter 1 / Rogue 1 / (continue build) is almost always mechanically superior to Rogue 1 / Fighter 1 / continue build.
In 3.5, it was almost always the other way around if you could live with the 1 HP difference due to the way skills worked.
TetsujinOni, other than the HP difference, what difference is there between a Fighter/Rogue (1/1) and a Rogue/Fighter (1/1)?
nosig wrote: TetsujinOni, other than the HP difference, what difference is there between a Fighter/Rogue (1/1) and a Rogue/Fighter (1/1)? In 3.5 skills at first fighter = 2*4, rogue = 8*4...afterwards.
EDIT:And now, the HP is the only difference, sorry I guess that's where you were going.
Sniggevert wrote: nosig wrote: TetsujinOni, other than the HP difference, what difference is there between a Fighter/Rogue (1/1) and a Rogue/Fighter (1/1)? In 3.5 skills at first fighter = 2*4, rogue = 8*4...afterwards.
EDIT:And now, the HP is the only difference, sorry I guess that's where you were going. I just didn't understand the comment "Fighter 1 / Rogue 1 / (continue build) is almost always mechanically superior to Rogue 1 / Fighter 1 / continue build"? the only difference is the 1 HP at the start... as least as far as I know... am I missing something?
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For purposes of mechanical superiority, I am considering PFS play only, and basing my conclusion on the challenges faced in getting from levels 1 to 5, particularly the WBL benefits of being able to survive playing up.
Fighter 1 before Rogue 1 will have had their higher bab, sooner, and their additional feat sooner, which translates to a higher chance of their entire group surviving with lower resource expenditures by level 2. This is a combination of organic and mechanical superiority that is often absent in theorycrafting but reflects the experience of actually playing at an OP table.
Obviously, GM credits make the two darn near equivalent, but unless a skill-carrier was needed, the fighter/rogue is more likely to contribute materially at level 1 if playing up on a 3-4 table of a 1-7 than the rogue/fighter. That viability can contribute materially to be an early WBL bump that puts the Fighter/Rogue ahead of the Rogue/Fighter.
The circumstances where the Rogue 1 makes the table work by providing a skill monkey where there wasn't one are fewer, but definitely exist. If you're filling in GM'd-before-played scenarios, metagaming to engineer your tables is pretty simple... even if you're not doing anything but playing your character /during/ the adventure. And then, the mechanical results of the OP WBL hiccough can really show up.
This of course seems to fall by the wayside as part of the new APL calculation changes in season 4...
Ah! so you are in effect saying that at a low tier table that a Fighter 1 is more useful than a Rogue 1, rather than "Fighter 1 / Rogue 1 / (continue build) is almost always mechanically superior to Rogue 1 / Fighter 1 / continue build"? I don't agree, as it depends to much on who else is at the table (and I find fighter types to be much more common the skill monkeys). But, this is just my opinion. YMMV.
On reflection I do see one advantage to a PC that is Ftr first. He assigns the greater Rogue skill points second, and so can have a greater number of skills with 2 ranks, while having the same number of skill points. Basicly (for an INT 10, non-human with Prefered class Rogue) he can have 5 two rank skills and 1 one rank. Whereas the PC that is Rogue first would have 2 two rank skills and 7 one rank ones. I'm not sure if this is "is almost always mechanically superior" - but it is a difference.
Thank you for all the help.
@ nosig & TetsujinOni: Something to help "bust up" your Fighter 1 vs Rogue 1 discussion is the consideration of the effects of archetypes on each of them.
As an example, Fighter (Lore Warden) 1 is a fair skill monkey, too, while retaining much of the benefits of any other Fighter at level 1. Yes, you give up medium & heavy armor and shields, but most of that won't affect your later Rogue levels, as well.
Eclectic might be worth taking as a feat, especially if you decide to take more levels in both classes...
Damn, it is an interesting idea. Rogue/Lore Warden, focusing on the Dirty Trick combat maneuver....
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