Similar to spell research, I had the idea that wizards should be able to research metamagic. It just seems so quintessentially wizard; coming up with your unique way of casting spells.
My biggest problem is coming up with a pricing system. Should all of them have a flat price? Should the price increase as you research more? Should the price be based upon power level? (I mean, what if the metamagic only adds some minor thing, like changes the color or something silly?)
Beyond metamagic, this lead me to thinking that other feats should be obtainable through training, research, the church, etc.
Alertness
Animal Affinity
Athletic
Deceitful
Deft Hands
Magical Aptitude
Persuasive
Self-Sufficient
Stealthy
10k each (Based off of the Ioun Stone that grants Alertness)
Endurance
Eschew Materials
Improved Counterspell
Master Craftsman
Improved Unarmed Strike
Spell Mastery
Rapid Reload
5k each
Channel Smite
Command Undead
Elemental Channel
Extra Mercy
Selective Channel
Turn Undead
These will probably also be 10k. You'll notice that none of these feats give you more channel energy, increase the DC, etc. It just gives you a new option to spend your current uses of channel energy.
Simple Weapon Proficiency
Shield Proficiency
1k each
Martial Weapon Proficiency
Medium Armor Proficiency
3k each
Exotic Weapon Proficiency
Heavy Armor Proficiency
Tower Shield Proficiency
5k each
This may be the most controversial, as it could lend to some abuse. However, I was discussing this with my fellow GM and we both agreed that this was an area where we didn't mind allowing players to choose how they equip themselves. Bard wants a Bastard Sword? Go for it.
The idea for these feats is to not add power creep so much as add some versatility. There would also be some limitations like you can only learn 1 per week/month or something like that, and perhaps even a hard cap on how many feats you could buy.
So... Do you think its balanced? What do you see going wrong in such a system?
We had a 3.5 rule where feat items were 5k per feat +5k per feat prerequisite.
So mobility would be 10K (dodge+mobility) for example.
hm, I don't know, I would imagine a metamagic research to slowly lower the spell level modifier number to may zero instead. Maybe a mage could have a -1 modifier on metamagic stuff every 3 level?
martial weapon proficiency as in all martial weapons or just one? If its just one then yeah, that looks okay.
Time requirements would be a must for sure.
You'd also have to look at how this effects characters who gains the most from its feat versatility. If other characters are getting a few feats every other level, then the fighter archetype would need to be able to dip into other fields as well. Like a fighter who dabbles in religion (cleric domain) or something. Nothing really wrong with the concept, your just going to have to watch class balance on a level by level basis. If that's no concern, then giver I say.
We had a 3.5 rule where feat items were 5k per feat +5k per feat prerequisite.
So mobility would be 10K (dodge+mobility) for example.
I like that idea. In retrospect, 5k is a much more reasonable price.
So wait, do you get both dodge and mobility for 10k? Or just mobility?
martial weapon proficiency as in all martial weapons or just one? If its just one then yeah, that looks okay.
Time requirements would be a must for sure.
You'd also have to look at how this effects characters who gains the most from its feat versatility. If other characters are getting a few feats every other level, then the fighter archetype would need to be able to dip into other fields as well. Like a fighter who dabbles in religion (cleric domain) or something. Nothing really wrong with the concept, your just going to have to watch class balance on a level by level basis. If that's no concern, then giver I say.
Martial Weapon Proficiency, just like the feat. (Just one proficiency) Otherwise you could do fun things like qualify for Eldritch Knight without dipping into fighter. Can't have that. :/
Yeah, I'm doing what I can to offer a little bit of something for everyone. Although I have a sneaking suspicion that some classes will get the better end of the deal. >.>
Alright, after a long banter with my fellow GM (we take turns GMing for our friends, running two separate campaigns) we decided on this.
The following feats will cost 5k:
Alertness
Animal Affinity
Athletic
Deceitful
Deft Hands
Magical Aptitude
Persuasive
Self-Sufficient
Stealthy
Prodigy
Improved Dirty Trick
Improved Disarm
Improved Drag
Improved Feint
Improved Grapple
Improved Overrun
Improved Reposition
Improved Steal
Improved Sunder
Improved Trip
*random note* As a houserule, we removed power attack and combat expertise as prerequisites for these feats.
Channel Smite
Command Undead
Elemental Channel
Extra Mercy
Selective Channel
Turn Undead
Heavy Armor Proficiency
Tower Shield Proficiency
Great Fortitude
Lighting Reflexes
Dodge
Nimble Moves
Defensive Combat Training
Combat Casting
...and all metamagic feats except for those with a +0 adjustment.
The following feats will cost 2.5k:
Eschew Materials
Fleet
Improved Counterspell
Improved Unarmed Strike
Master Craftsman
Rapid Reload
Run
Spell Mastery
Simple Weapon Proficiency
Shield Proficiency
Martial Weapon Proficiency
Medium Armor Proficiency
...and all metamagic feats with a +0 adjustment.
We’re undecided on how long it should take to train (A week? A month?) and if there are any limits on how many you can take beyond how much you are willing to spend.
Movins assessment seems fair,
As a side note, I think it might be fun to actually take one or two of the less useful feats once in a while instead of just passing over them without a second glance.
We had a 3.5 rule where feat items were 5k per feat +5k per feat prerequisite.
So mobility would be 10K (dodge+mobility) for example.
I like that idea. In retrospect, 5k is a much more reasonable price.
So wait, do you get both dodge and mobility for 10k? Or just mobility?
You need one to move the other. So if you have dodge as a regular feat you can get just mobility for 5k. It's unusable if you don't have dodge. If you want to use it for both it cost's 10K.
Spontaneous casters will love you forever, MM feats for Spont casters is an exponential growth of power each time as they may not get different spells what they do get is more versatility with those spells.
Likely won't get too out of hand so long as you remember to enforce the Full round action casting time on Spont cast MM spells.I would keep an eye on anyone with Wayang Spell hunter or any other -1 MM spell cost traits. Nonlethal magic missile as a cantrip is a fancy trick for a wizard and a headache for the GM.
As for Time
Perhaps something like the magic item creation requirements?
1 week/ 1000GP required or something like that.
Time can be reduced but it requires increasingly harsh skill checks to keep up with the demanding schedule.I would eyeball that a number of feats equal to your Character level or perhaps 1/2character level would be a ball park to begin with. The weak feats costing .5 a level slot and the 5k feats costing 1 level slot.
Until you hit something like 10-12th level the cost of the feats and limitations of the slots should be enough to keep balance. I might advise removing Quicken, Persistent and Dazing spell Metamagics from your list as they are all incredibly powerful when ab/used correctly to warrant an actual feat slot instead of a "gold slot"
We're abiding by Jason Bulmahn's interpretation, so no turning level 1 or 2 spells into cantrips. >_>
Magical Lineage was never intended as a way for you to actually lower a spell's level. It was put in to allow you to reduce the increase from a metamagic feat. So, no unlimited magic missiles. I will see to it that the language of this ability is clarified soon and I will get this added to the FAQ.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
This is the accompanying paragraph to the new rule in my homebrew rulebook.
This new rule allows players to train feats at a specified price. I thought that this system would be a useful tool, as these feats are not overpowered and many of them encourage styles of play our group does not normally use. Also, GMs may use this system to award players with feats as a form of loot. (Example: The experience of completing a quest grants a feat; the person who asked something of you awards you with special training, etc.)
Training feats is at GM discretion as to when you may do so, which feats are available at what location, how long it takes, and how often you may do so. GMs may allow other feats to be trained as well. If a GM felt like giving a teamwork feat to the whole party or whatever else, they could. Players shouldn’t beleaguer their GM for a specific feat. Just spend your actual feat on it. Only GMs should dole out feats that are not on this list. The ones listed should be more readily available and require less deliberating, other than "does the player have the time and is he in a location that offers that training?"
Beyond that, in my games, I'm thinking 1 week for a 2.5k feat or 2 weeks for a 5k feat.
I don't think I'm going to have a hard limit on how many feats someone can take, but if it does become an issue, a 5k feat/2 levels does sound about right.
I contemplated removing Quicken, Dazing, etc. or pricing them higher than the others, but my fellow GM didn't think it was an issue. And given how freely gp flows in our games, rods of quicken and other rods are often superior to using the feat. But we'll keep an eye out for abuse. :/
*random note* The "Extra" feats were taken off the list of feats you could buy. They're more prone to abuse than we would like. Rather, it seemed more a pure increase in power than an interesting option.
Movins assessment seems fair,
As a side note, I think it might be fun to actually take one or two of the less useful feats once in a while instead of just passing over them without a second glance.
That's what I'm hoping players will do. :3
Our players almost never use combat maneuvers nor metamagic. Channel Energy is solely a post-combat technique. Players more or less worked with the proficiencies they were given.
...in so many ways, I hope this deepens combat tactics.
Trogdar = Trogdor | The Chort = The Cheat
homestarrunner.com?
You need one to move the other. So if you have dodge as a regular feat you can get just mobility for 5k. It's unusable if you don't have dodge. If you want to use it for both it cost's 10K.
Makes sense. We decided against delving into feat chains with this system; although these feats do lead into some interesting feat chains you can take with the feats you gain from leveling up.