Small Aasimars?


Pathfinder Society

The Exchange 5/5

6 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Blood of angels has a sidebar about small Aasimars, how the only thing different is they have the small size category. Is that a legal option for pfs?

Dark Archive 3/5 **

Dare I ask what character concept you have in mind? I'm already imagining an angelic halfling hovering over the shoulder of a PC, giving advice on making the moral and just decisions.


Hovering? Wouldn't it be funnier if they were just sitting on the PC's shoulder, like a bird?

2/5

From Additional Resources:

Quote:

Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Angels

To create a Aasimar character, you must have a Chronicle sheet that opens the race as a legal option at character creation.
Bloodlines: martyred bloodline is legal for Pathfinder Society but the bonus feat Leadership remains unavailable; Heritages: all heritages on pages 21–23 are legal; Feats: all feats on pages 24–25 are legal except Supernal Feast; Magic: bard masterpieces are legal; Other: variant assimar abilities are not legal for Pathfinder Society; Oracle Curses on page 26 are legal; Inquisitons on pages 26–27 are legal; Subdomains: all subdomains on page 27 are legal; Traits: all traits on pages 30–31 are legal except ethical leader. Clergy member is useable once per scenario instead of once per week. Faith healer may be used for Day Job checks.

So, if it an actual trait, then it would work. I know that it costs the same amount of race points in the ARG to make a race either medium or small.

The Exchange 5/5

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

It's not a trait, it's nothing called out as verboten on the additional resources page. It's also not explicitly allowed. As I said, it's just a sidebar in the blood of angels book.

Bd, I daren't mention it until I know whether I can do it.

5/5

Since being small with no other changes is at best a wash and at worst a net negative, I wouldn't imagine anyone would have a problem with it.

The Exchange 5/5

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

right? its not really a boon. you get the +1 to AC, +1 to hit, smaller damage dice for weapons, lower carrying capacity, -1 to CMB/CMD, +4 to stealth.

blood of angels page 4, tail of the sidebar:

Quote:

Non-human aasimars have the same statistics as human

aasimars with the exception of size. Thus a halfling aasimar
is Small but otherwise possesses the same statistics and
abilities as a human aasimar—the difference is purely
cosmetic. Non-human aasimars do not possess any of the
racial abilities of their base race. However, they are usually
raised in the same cultural context as other members of
their base race, and thus generally adopt the same fighting
style as their peers, use the same types of weapons and
armor, and study the same skills.

Dark Archive 3/5 **

Seraphimpunk wrote:

Bd, I daren't mention it until I know whether I can do it.

Oh, well now I want an answer to this rules question just so I can hear the concept.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

So Originally I was going to say Sure... But then after looking at Additional Resources I rethought that.

So if Additional Resources said "Everything in this book except the following is legal" then I would say yes you can play a small Aasimars, but it does not say that. Instead it calls out specifically what is legal in the book.

Since it does not mention that passage *Which does change mechanical aspects of your character*, I have to say no you can't.

But in the End really only Mike and Mark can make that call.

I would suggest holding off on making the character until you get something more concrete then a bunch of player and GM opinions. If you don't you may run into GMs that won't let you play the character small.

The Exchange 5/5

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

that'd be fun table variation. lol.
here's my character as medium, and here's my character as small.

yeah, i'm going to wait until i have an official say on the matter.
this likely won't be for my aasimar synthesist that i'm rebuilding, but for another character down the line once aasimars are open.

If I thought the additional resources not mentioning it would have ruled it out altogether, I wouldn't ask. But i can see overlooking a sidebar, since on the surface it doesn't seem to have any additional rules to make a ruling on. the additional resources section does call out what is legal, and also specifies what is illegal (ex. Supernal Feast). I figure by mentioning it on the forums, I might get them to say whether the omission is intentional (aka all PFS Aasimar must be medium), or the omission was unintentional (sure, you can have small aasimars, maybe even small tieflings).

Dark Archive RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

Additional Resources wrote:
Below is a specific list of Paizo Publishing products and the equipment, traits, deities, spells, feats, and classes contained within that are legal for play in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. While most of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook is legal for play (with some feat and spell exceptions), these additional resources give you new character options. If a product does not appear on this list, then it is not considered legal for play. This list will be updated frequently as new products are released.

Highlighting by me.

Since it is not explicitly pointed out, it is not legal for play.

The Exchange 5/5

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

the product "blood of angels" , does appear on the list, and is legal for play. the small size is neither equipment, a trait, a diety, spell, feat or class.

the question is whether the sidebar was omitted intentionally or not.
I understand that until its clarified that it is legal for play, small aasimars are not permitted. But as its not a trait or other stat usually called out in books, i can see how it could have been overlooked.

But i really wanna play one, so i'm harping and hoping they'll say it was an oversight and permit it. Size is generally concrete as part of the race. but blood of angels brought it up as an irregularity for aasimars.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Seraphimpunk wrote:

It's not a trait, it's nothing called out as verboten on the additional resources page. It's also not explicitly allowed. As I said, it's just a sidebar in the blood of angels book.

Bd, I daren't mention it until I know whether I can do it.

If it isn't called out specifically as legal, then it isn't.

Dark Archive 4/5

They don't allow it from Blood of Fiends so I don't see why this case is any different.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Todd Morgan wrote:
They don't allow it from Blood of Fiends so I don't see why this case is any different.

This. Blood of Angels being enabled for PFS isn't the same thing as saying that you are going to get cover to cover use of the book. Like it's infernal counterpart you'll be told what you can and can not use from the book when Additional Resources is updated.

The Exchange 5/5

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

i hadn't even looked through blood of fiends, so i didn't know they had a similar sidebar

Scarab Sages 1/5

And why don't they allow it from Blood of Fiends?

It's kind of sad that there was no official response or reasoning made in this thread.

What is so wrong with the concept of small aasimars and tieflings? Is there some sort of crazy, over-powered synergy that I'm not seeing?

5/5

Official clarification: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2opcn?Tieflings-Aasimars-and-Other-Races#3

(You're on your own for reasoning.)

1/5

"Non-human aasimars have the same statistics as human
aasimars with the exception of size. Thus a halfling aasimar
is Small but otherwise possesses the same statistics and
abilities as a human aasimar—the difference is purely
cosmetic."

I read this as you don't even get the mechanical changes from being small, you just call yourself that for fluff purposes, it is purely cosmetic. By this interpretation, I don't think anyone in PFS would give you much grief for saying your mother was a gnome and your father smelled of bird flu.

Dark Archive 4/5

The desire for small sized aasimars and tieflings is the size bonus to attack and AC (+1) with no penalty to speed, plus the ability to ride medium mounts with a 20 ST instead of the normal 16 max (18 for Wayang) (as aasimars and tieflings would be the only small races with a ST bonus)

The above of course is the mechanical reason as to why it was most likely restricted by Mike and Mark earlier, the mechanical advantages of a small sized character are significant unless also coupled with the standard penalties of a small sized character

Dark Archive 4/5

Caderyn hit the nail on the head with some reasons why small aasimars are a dangerous thing.

To those asking why such-and-such isn't allowed from some material, it's usually either because it doesn't fit with the campaign setting (and I can't recall any small aasimar showing up in Golarian as of yet) or because it's overpowered (and I certainly think a 20 strength small-sized cavalier charging for +10 [2d6+14/x3] at first level is overpowered).

Math on that charge:
Strength 20 (+5), charge +2, height +1, size +1, BAB +1
Lance 1d6+7 doubled because of the charge

Scarab Sages 1/5

Couldn't access to small aasimars and tieflings be restricted to those heritages that don't give a STR bonus? Or, for a more simple rule, state that NONE of the variant heritages can be mixed with the small parent / size variation. In a way, that treats small aasimars/tieflings as a 'heritage' in and of itself.

Another, less simple option might be to pick specific heritages that would allow a small parent, chosen to minimize or eliminate the unwanted combinations, for example, those with a Str penalty and/or a Dex/Con boost to reflect Halfling/Gnome heritage.

(BTW, wouldn't there be small fiends and celestials that could be the outsider ancestor of an aasimar/tiefling?)

Also, being on a medium mount would generally not give a +1 from higher ground. Still, +9 vs +10 is hardly the difference in making that palatable.

Finally, perhaps the rule could be handled differently for those community members that have earned a boon to play an aasimar or a tiefling vs those who just used open access to play them? I currently have no race access boons and am unlikely to get one any time soon, yet I still feel that the people that earned them should be getting something for their efforts.

What do I have to gain from wider access? I had a 90% built vanilla, but SMALL, feathery aasimar PC that had the bonded mount feature as a companion character for another player's tengu PC. Aasimar and tengu are the only open access races for bird-like PCs (as there's no such thing as a Vrock-tiefling). Tengu are always medium, whereas the RAW allows for medium OR small aasimars.

This matters to me because I *loathe* the mount options for medium characters, namely the long and varied list of horse or camel. "Go hooves or go home!" IMHO, they are too big and too limited in where they can go to be of any use. IMHO, any canine is far preferable, even though they never get multiple attacks and generally aren't as strong or hardy, and in spite of losing access to the horseshoe item access, and small PCs can have a wolf mount. Frankly, I'd rather have any animal with paws (e.g. dog, cat, weasel, rodent, etc.) than one with hooves (antelope, horse, deer, pig, etc.)! And, IIRC, this PC's STR was 12, or at the most 14. CHA was too important to chintz, and I felt I couldn't afford to dump ANY attributes, meaning there simply weren't enough points left for a martial build and a great strength.

So, I'm trapped between the zero-latitude PFS mount access and PFS not allowing the small variant builds for the legal outsider races.

I so wish that there was a way to constrain abusers without eliminating non-abusive options! I know, it's a pipe-dream, and it's never going to happen.

Shadow Lodge 1/5

Mike ruled that only human descended Assamir are allowable for play,also--

Additional Resources wrote:
Other: variant assimar abilities are not legal for Pathfinder Society;

That means anything not named is not allowed, including the relevant sidebar. That means medium size. Secondly, there is a potential mechanical advantage/change as others pointed out.

Todd Lower wrote:
They don't allow it from Blood of Fiends so I don't see why this case is any different.

There is a sidebar in blood of angels covering the topic, not one in Blood of Fiends. This, along with more attention to fluff like 'how does an Assimar become evil' is why Blood of Angels is a somewhat better written book IMHO.

It also points to a good rule of thumb on what is allowed. Mechanical changes, no, unless specifically allowed. On the other hand, freely have fun with fluff. However, noting that idyllkin assimars have animal features, deciding your character is covered with fur, and calling him 'Chewie' is still in bad taste.

As an ex stalwart defender of the pig and founder of the Order of Kitsume 'coyotes' and dog headed Osirions should add weight to my opinion.

Sovereign Court 5/5

Kerney wrote:

Mike ruled that only human descended Assamir are allowable for play,also--

Todd Lower wrote:
They don't allow it from Blood of Fiends so I don't see why this case is any different.

Nope, didn't say it. Todd Morgan said it.

Shadow Lodge 1/5

Too many Todds, sorry about that.

Sovereign Court 5/5

Kerney wrote:
Too many Todds, sorry about that.

Two is too many? What are you saying? :-)

Dark Archive 4/5

As to the small creature on a medium mount for +1: That's in the combat bonuses chart. If you are mounted and fighting an unmounted opponent, you get +1 for height, even if you're tiny-sized.

1/5

Sigh. Abstraction call be really, really, silly. A Fine rider on a Tiny mount gets a +1 height bonus against a Colossal, unmounted target.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

OpinionOrSatire wrote:
Sigh. Abstraction call be really, really, silly. A Fine rider on a Tiny mount gets a +1 height bonus against a Colossal, unmounted target.

If it bothers you, just re-label it from a "height bonus" to a "ball bonus". Problem solved.

2/5

Adam Mogyorodi wrote:
As to the small creature on a medium mount for +1: That's in the combat bonuses chart. If you are mounted and fighting an unmounted opponent, you get +1 for height, even if you're tiny-sized.

You only get the height bonus if the target is smaller than the mount. So a halfling on a pony would get the bonus vs goblins but not orcs.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 *

CRB wrote:
When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground.

The fairie on his mighty chihuaua mount does not get the +1 against the hill giant ... or even the gnome.

Dark Archive 4/5

Oh hey, I did not notice that caveat. I was wrong. :)

Liberty's Edge 4/5 *

That's a rule I am familiar with. The Great Rinaldo is my wolf-mounted Halfling, and rarely gets to attack creatures small enough to get the bonus. :(

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/5 *

Hmm.. intersting points (of course I just wish I could move my Teifling's vestigial wings' racial trait to a feat that lets her fly with real wings!) So I understand how a concept can get lost in the rules.

Definitely didn't know about the mount distintion.. will have to remember it.

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