Pact-Based Magic

[TheDisgaean]

Trying to come up with a pact-based spellcasting class. I'm aware of the Binder and its glorious rebirth in the much-lauded "Secrets of Pact Magic", but I'm looking for something more along the lines of "form a permanant-until broken covenant with a one or more spirits/demons/outsiders" than "IM a spirit into your soul for a brief period of time at the risk of a type of bodyjacking, repeat when time runs out" to use their spells and/or powers. Here's what I have for the system (May be subject to GM approval):

• Caster and Spirit must form some kind of contract. This can range from simple ("Do not summon spirit on certain days") to out-right insane ("Kill your family, best friend, and his family, bathe in their blood, and then drink it".).

• Something of personal value to the Caster must be held as collateral should the contract be broken. Again, this can be simple (A sum of money or possession) to out-right insane (The classic "sell your soul or first-born child" to having your skin flayed off your body).

• Half your spells known are derived from your pact(s). The rest from the class' (or other class') spell list. Pacts will either have their own mini-spell list or a bonus spell list like the Sorcerer Bloodlines and Cleric Domains.

• If "powers" (Think Bloodline and Domain) are used, the Caster can only use the powers one pact, the "Active Pact". They'd be able to switch their Active Pact as a full round action and may be able to have multiple Active Pacts as they level up. I'm thinking each pact would have 2-5 powers.

• At some point the Caster would learn to summon their Spirit(s) into battle. They wouldn't be able to use spells and powers gained from that Spirit as long as they're summoned. The summoning would function like the Summon spells.

• If a Spirit leaves the Caster's service, that spirit can be replaced ala Animal Companion.

  That's what I have so far. Let me know what you think and needs to be done to balance this out.

[The NPC]

I'd suggest either Summoner or 3.5 Warlock (Or one of the updated iterations floating about the forums).

[chaoseffect]

I really like the first 2 points, kinda like the 3rd, a little iffy on the 4th, and not a big fan of the 5th.

For the first two, I love the flavor you're going for and seems like it could make some interesting character backstories.

For the third point, I think that sounds a bit much (if you're going with the "half you spells from your pact" idea). This is because it's not like a sorceror's bonus spells or a cleric's domain spells, its half of everything you get to cast instead of just spells you know on top of what you normally get. I think maybe instead give a small pool of spells for each pact that a prepared caster can spontaneously cast (sacrificing a prepared spell) so many times per day, and just have those spells added to a spontaneous casters spell known but perhaps let them be able to cast them at a +1cl or something so many times per day.

For the 4th point: I think multiple pacts kind of takes away from the concept a bit; I prefer the idea of a larger bonus system (like say Oracle's mysteries) then the mini-bonuses from domains, as I think it shows more a connection between the binder and the thing contracted. Perhaps treat it like an archetype, multiple bindings that cap what abilities you can get, or have one large binding that levels all the way up?

5th. It sounds like the thing you're binding to is more than just a generic spirit (in terms of gameplay) so using a standard summon for it seems a little underwhelming. On the other hand, having a sort of Eidolon-ish creature kinda seems to step on the Summoner's toes a little too much, but I guess it could work. Might instead be easier for you to instead manifest the pact spirit into yourself, acting as a late level self buff that gives you properties of the thing you're bound to (like a polymorph effect)?

Hmm just a few thoughts I immediately had after reading your post.

[Ascalaphus]

The tricky thing here is making it balanced. One premier reason people would engage in such dubious pacts is because they want much more Power than they can/should have; they want to break the rules. What the PC wants to do IC is destroy the power balance.

If the class doesn't deliver that feeling, that you're getting Too Much for a price that's a bit too much, and with real risks, then it doesn't work. On the other hand, you don't actually want to risk game balance.

Another problem is the price; "external" things like loved ones may matter more or less to "true roleplayers" or munchkins.

An area you could look at is sacrificing some of your powers (ability damage, hit points, penalties to some skills or saving throws). But you don't want a nearby cleric with lots of Restoration to fix this easily, that would take away the sense of having to really PAY. Maybe stipulate that if you "heal" the price, you violate the pact.

Another idea: make part of the price random-ish. The player shouldn't be too certain what he's going to end up paying, how much, or when. The price shouldn't be too deadly, but not knowing when or how it's gonna happen should be scary.

Summoning your patron is iffy, particularly if it's supposed to be something bigger than you are; in that case you shouldn't have real control over it.

[TheDisgaean]

chaoseffect wrote:

I really like the first 2 points, kinda like the 3rd, a little iffy on the 4th, and not a big fan of the 5th.

For the first two, I love the flavor you're going for and seems like it could make some interesting character backstories.

For the third point, I think that sounds a bit much (if you're going with the "half you spells from your pact" idea). This is because it's not like a sorceror's bonus spells or a cleric's domain spells, its half of everything you get to cast instead of just spells you know on top of what you normally get. I think maybe instead give a small pool of spells for each pact that a prepared caster can spontaneously cast (sacrificing a prepared spell) so many times per day, and just have those spells added to a spontaneous casters spell known but perhaps let them be able to cast them at a +1cl or something so many times per day.

For the 4th point: I think multiple pacts kind of takes away from the concept a bit; I prefer the idea of a larger bonus system (like say Oracle's mysteries) then the mini-bonuses from domains, as I think it shows more a connection between the binder and the thing contracted. Perhaps treat it like an archetype, multiple bindings that cap what abilities you can get, or have one large binding that levels all the way up?

5th. It sounds like the thing you're binding to is more than just a generic spirit (in terms of gameplay) so using a standard summon for it seems a little underwhelming. On the other hand, having a sort of Eidolon-ish creature kinda seems to step on the Summoner's toes a little too much, but I guess it could work. Might instead be easier for you to instead manifest the pact spirit into yourself, acting as a late level self buff that gives you properties of the thing you're bound to (like a polymorph effect)?

Hmm just a few thoughts I immediately had after reading your post.

Sort of like the Summoner's ability to fuse with with their Eidolon? That would work. A friend of mine also suggested just having your spirits briefly manifested for a brief period to give a boost to Diplomacy and Bluff. I think I'm just gonna dump the full-on summoning thing. Maybe incoroprate that into a prestige class.

[TheDisgaean]

Posted my pact-magic class idea. Here it is:

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz6442?Base-Class-The-Oathmage#1

[Theos Imarion]

theirs 2 prestige classes, Demoniac(pact with demons), and diabolist(pact with devils)