Regatta - Speed kills?

[poilbrun]

I'm reading the rules for the regatta and I have some trouble understanding one thing: what's the point of going any faster than 30 feet?

I don't see any advantage to do so and in fact, speed can be disadvantageous in event F. I'll put the discussion in a spoiler tag to avoid any issue:

Spoiler:

Straight from the adventure: "If a character spots a reef at a distance of four times the ship’s speed, no check is required to steer the ship to avoid the reef. If a reef is spotted at a distance of twice the ship’s speed, the sailing check has a base DC of 5. If a reef is spotted at a distance of the ship’s speed, the base DC is 20. The normal penalties on the sailing checks for the ship’s speed still apply"

In other words, if a ship moves at 30 feet, a perception check of 17 negates the need for a roll, a check of 11 requires a DC 5 sailing check and a check of 8 requires a DC 20 sailing check. A check under 8 means the ship takes 8d8 points of damage and the PC's subtract 1d4+1 from their race score. At the end of the event, the race score is reduced by 1.

At 60 feet, a perception check of 29 negates the need for a roll, a check of 17 requires a DC 5 sailing check with a -5 penalty on the roll and a check of 11 requires a DC 20 sailing check, also with a -5 penalty. A check under 11 means the ship takes 8d8 points of damage and the PC's subtract 1d4+1 from their race score. At the end of the event, the race score does not change.

At 90 feet, a perception check of 41 negates the need for a roll, a check of 23 requires a DC 5 sailing check with a -10 penalty on the roll and a check of 14 requires a DC 20 sailing check, also with a -10 penalty. A check under 14 means the ship takes 8d8 points of damage and the PC's subtract 1d4+1 from their race score. At the end of the event, the race score increased by 1.

Heaven forbid that they have a galley going at its full speed of 120 feet or the perception checks get even crazier (perception checks of 53, 29, and 17 and the sailing check have a -20 penalty), for a measly +2 on their race score. I won't even bother talking about going with the wind in a sailing ship for a speed of 180 feet.

I can imagine a group willing to take the risk of going at 60 instead of 30 feet not to get a negative modifier to their race score, but nothing higher seem worth it.

But even worse than this particular case, there is no general modifier to the race score for having a faster ship than the others. This is in my mind a failing by the rules of the regatta.

While talking about speed, I have trouble understanding the general rules about max speed. Why wouldn't a ship permanently be at full speed? If we look in the Core Rulebook, a sailing ship moves 2 miles an hour or 48 miles a day (it also doesn't set anchor at night, contrary to the Wormwood in the first adventure). 2 miles an hour means 17,6 feet per round (2 miles = 10560 feet, 1 hour = 600 rounds). A speed of 30 feet per round would mean 3.4 miles per hour or 81.6 miles per day. At max speed (and I don't recall anything in the rules saying you can't go full speed indefinitely), that's 10.2 miles an hour or 244,8 miles a day. In other words, you can go from the northernmost latitude in the Shackles to its southernmost in a day and from its westernmost longitude to its easternmost in a day and a half. Obviously, this is in a straight line and navigating between islands is everything but, but I had trouble telling my players that they could not go from Rickety's Squibs to Tidewater Rock in a single (which they should have been able to according to the rules, since there are nearly no island to navigate through).

So my question is: what rules have I overlooked, either in the regatta or in the general speed rules? I'd be especially curious about the full speed all the time one and the possibility to navigate 24 hours a day (crew tiredness is not really a problem, given the space on a sailing ship, you can easily have 3 shifts working 8 hours each).

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

Navigation: Driving full-speed in the wrong direction could delay you further than keeping a medium speed and keeping a careful eye on the coast.

Plunder: why are you sailing at full speed and ignoring all of those merchant vessels and towns ripe for plucking?

Hazards and Weather: A storm can tear the sails right off your ship, a hidden reef or wreck could scupper your hull entirely, and the crew can only row for so long before they start passing out.

[poilbrun]

Thanks for your input, but this only confirms what I thought, that the rules don't cover this :-(

Navigation: honestly, full speed for a sailing ship is 10 miles an hour, slow enough to keep a careful eye out

Hazards and Weather: nothing says that a storm would tear the sails faster for a fast moving ship, though I would agree that the more you want to catch the wind, the more danger there is, but that's a DM's call; hidden reef or wreck, sure, but are we really supposed to fill the areas with such?; for the crew, I'm basing myself on a sailing ship, 20 crew members needed, room for 120 passengers: you can easily plan to have a larger crew working in 2 or 3 ships.

Plunder: obviously you are right here, but it works both ways. If merchant ships can cross the Shackles from North to South or the other way around (Cheliax to and from Sargava) in barely more than a day, pirates will be hard pressed to eke out a living, as they don't want to fight in other territorial waters where the navy might be a threat

What I'm afraid of as I'm playing more and more with the ship rules (my players just came out of Rickety's Squibs and attacked their first ship) is that the basis for the system is wrong. The Wormwood leaves Port Peril and passes to the east of Dahak's Teeth on the fourth day (p 24), that's about 50 miles as the crow flies. If we double the distance to account for the fact that she does not go there in a straight line and goes at a slow 30 ft per round, that means that she is only moving 7.5 hours a day. My question is: why are they moving so slow and why are they moving only for such a low amount of time each day?

In the Player's Guide, under Evasion and Pursuit, it is suggested that a chase takes 1d4 days. We can imagine that a ship that's trying to evade pirates is moving as fast as possible and is probably not stopping at night. If we assume that the ship moves at the full 90 ft per round during the day and at a slow 30 ft per round at night to avoid running aground, for 12 hours of daylight, that's 164 miles a day, for 4 days, so about 650 miles. So if you start the chase in the open seas south of the Shackles in the Fever Sea (where Captain Harrigan hopes to find a prey) and the prey sails straight south, you end up about 250 miles south of Sargava, off the Golarion map.

Now, obviously I'm being a bit absurd here, assuming that the ship would flee straight south. But keeping in mind the speeds the rules allow, it should be impossible to attack a ship as they would easily be able to flee back to patrolled waters or even to a port. The only possible way would be to only attack ships within the Shackles and use your superior knowledge of the area to gain the upper hand on the merchant vessels and avoid the open sea like the plague. But the only experienced captain we see in action does the opposite.

What I'm thinking is that rules about speed were lost on the cutting floor. Otherwise, they can't make sense on their own and don't line up with the Core Rulebooks anyway.

Having thought about the regatta a bit more, I simply won't say anything to the players. I'm sure they'll make the logical choice of going as fast of possible and maybe just slow down when it makes sense. It sill bothers me that there's no mention of their speed in the rules, as players who would try to get the fastest ship possible would not be rewarded...

[vikingson]

ok, here coems the slightly naval take

For one ship speeds are...way off. I guess for reasons of complexity, since trimming a sailing ship in real life for optimum speed is complex and often contradictory work.
Maximum speed is limited by the length of the ship (hydrodynamic limits), shape of the hull, condition of the hull, load of the ship, trim of the ship ( lay of the ship in the water), limits of the rudder, condition of the rigging (structure, weight, quality and cut of sails, possibilities of trimming), the ships' speed of turn, the number and condition of the crew plus...the prevailing wind and its strength.
Several additional factors add to this (swell, geographical conditions etc etc )

This becomes too much of a complex formula to resolve well

The maximum any sailing ship should be able to go in the setting would be around 12-13 knots, hydrodynamically. That is under strong, but not too strong winds, in the optimum direction, every thing else being ship-shape. With something like a frigate or speed-build warship (as opposed to sturdy and tough). Normal speed should be around 6 knots, in a trimmed vessel. Merchantman will happily roll about at 4-5 knots.

And the sighting radius of a ship in those conditions with clear skiy is about 15 miles, since the oppositions mast rise well over the horizon, too.

So bascially you can see/observe most ship within a 2 hours radius, if it stands still. Execept at night or in storms, you are not going to miss anyone. Sailing and catching are a different matter, but again speed helps. Every nautical mile (knot) you are faster cuts of an hour or so of a chase. 8 miles distant, merchantmen at 5 knots, pirate at 6... makes it at least an eight hour chase. Let's hope the pirate spotted him before noon.

Tearing sails while sailing faster ? No. You are not going to exchange sails for "strong wind" ones like you would today. But you might be in severe trouble with rigging (yards, masttops) breaking from overload, especially in bad gusts. And that will leave you badly crippled

The entire hazards factor : coral reefs do not suddenly jut out of the ocean, they exits in a very specififc depth down to 60'-100', on specific types of seaground. If the water is deeper = no coral reefs. If the seaground is higher, it's called an island^^

And given that water acts dynamically in a rolling motion, sudden underwater inclines towards the surface produce distinctive groundswell, aka "breakers" and strong waves appearing out of seeming nowhere (cross-seas), which a trained lookout is set to watch for.
Besides, tropical waters = is very clear, you spot (!) the seaground coming up and forming barriers, especially in a storm where seas are crashing over the steps of reefs visible for miles (!). Very common phenomenon of reefs... Breakers above them !

The question is : can you avoid them ? Again, speed helps very much sailing yourself free.
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As for the whole "Through the Shackles" question - why the merchantmen do not sail around the Shackles far to the west is rather beyond me. We are in a trade wind area with regular and constant winds, from the same direction. Nothing picks out a ship as well as sailing through the very narrow channels of the Shackles (often only a few miles wide ), where navigation at night becomes very hazardous, too.

The Carribean worked differently on this, since the trade ports for the desired goods were/are located within the Carribean. Maracaibo, Caracas, Antiguam, Barbados, Curacao, Vera Cruz, St. Kitts, St. Lucia, Montserrat, Havanna, Santiago Hispaniola.... each of them inside the "narrow confines" of the Carribean.

I am tempted to put lots of sugar plantations there, to make traders actually want to visit the place. Plus.. where does all the sugar come from^^ This also makes slave trade feasible, or slave-liberation a real factor

But with the Shackles - four or five days sailing west puts you outside of the Shackles into the open sea, where spotting and actually catching you becomes incredibly more difficult... As a merchant, I'd rather have my ship sail the longer course and keep my goods. Nevermind that merchant crews, being smaller in size, would actually love the lengthy + few manoueuvres run down the Shackles instead of going on the tricky and pirate haunted trip through all those narrow channels, filled with buccanners and constant work at the sails.
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Chasing ships at night : how exactly does anyone think you can spot a ship several miles off at night ? Darkvision ? Halfling-fueled radar ?

In seabourne chases , as the hunted you tried to get to Dusk, and lose the pursuit in the encroaching night, because they cannot see what exactly you do, and where you lay a new course. Finding the opposite on the following work was absolutely exceptional (unless the chase was down the Channel) , but the very essence of seamanship and good fortune regarding your own guesswork. So whatever the rules say... yea, good luck

The rules amd maritime details are mostly all wrong (if you care, and many landborne groups won't), and it does distract from the story, but one might ask if paizo intended to construct an enitre mini-game of shipping and seafaring in addition to the normal core rules.

I guess not ?
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If the players went to great lengths to increase the speed of their vessel, give them an extra regatta point or two, if they handle their vessel well (I'd say beating the difficulties by more than +5 every time) and have a reasonable crew, because constant trimming and adjustment will fatigue them, easily.
As for Harrigan, the Wormwood is such a crutch of a ship (speaking purely by its hull shape, which has everything off a collier, and nothing of anything with speed) , that it should not really go all that fast, relying more on the "mean tricks" of the captain.

Makes it more of a contest between "young and talented" and "nasty old guard"... things feels more cinematic that way

[vikingson]

Speedy sailing :

How about assigning a variable amount of bonus to the PCs sailing rolls

Type of ship : +1 - +2 (say a slim schooner or sloop, or a Chelian cutter - basically this would be "narrow hull" in action).

Extras : +1 - +3 number of outfits for the vessel ( copper plating, large rudder -this one already gives a bonus, magically treated hull, Extended Keel-this one already gives a bonus, too. magically treated sails, rapid deploy sails - for course changes. )

Contraproductive Extras : -1 -3 ( like Armour plating, Wooden plating, Sturdy Hull, Increased Cargo Capacity, Ram (this should really be a problem), very large number of warmachines on board ( which increase weight and affect the ships stability, reducing her ability to carry sail ).

Perhaps some skill use by the shipwright (if the crew has one) getting the ship "regatta-ready" beforehand might add a Bonus too.

"Scraped her bottom clean as a jellyfish, sir and we rally patched up those braces on the mainyard. She will answer for any storm now, sir come a turtle or not!"

Same for the quartermaster stowing the ship "as low as possible", enabling more sails to be carried and less leeway.

And how about leaving really heavy stuff ashore ? Stow your extra anchors (most ships will have several, and sail with but one...) quite a number of tons you might want to pick up afterwards, but there should be some bonus for the vessel "running light and stiff"

Stacked together, these should enable a circumspect PC crew to make some of the harsher sailing checks far more easily, since the sail a nimble vessel. This also allows to use some of "the longer but safer" routes

One can of course assign boni for individual types of rigs to certain situations in the regatta : Lateen rigs have better performance cruising into the wind, full-ship yard based rigging is stronger on the reaching beams. But this might be complicated.

Calculate the "Shipshape" bonus before the race and note it down. Oh and perhaps tell the players how "good" the ship is running^^

If they feel really nefarious, consider sabotage on the other pirate's vessel. But do not get caught....