Goblin Squad Member
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I'm a firm believer that PvP in PFO should be fully open, and also rarely used. It should always be there, but the worry should be less than your usual open PvP game. When you are open to non-criminal attack, it should be obvious and avoidable. I want a system where the cost of attacking is higher than the cost of being attacked. It should also be possible for someone to never experience these costs, but it should by no means be difficult, it should be next to impossible.
One thing that games have not simulated is fines and jail time. If you are killed by a player with your bounty you are considered 'caught' and the following will happen:
The statute of limitations for most crimes is 1 year real time, since the last criminal act. That means you must go one year without committing a criminal act or getting caught and all criminal flags will be removed. There will be certain things, such as murder that will never be removed until you pay the price for your crime.
The price of the crime should be equal to twice(ratio can be changed) the net loss of the damaged party. This fine is taken as a tax on all of your transactions if you are unable to pay in full. the moment you are caught all of your assets are drained until the fine is paid, if you don't have enough, you experience jail time. The percentage of money that each damaged party gets is proportional to the amount they are entitled to compared to the total fine, so the person getting the most total, gets the most out of each payment and everyone is paid off at the same time.
Jail time will be simulated by a cap to the size of your net monetary assets, and if you go above that cap all monetary input will be taxed 100% towards paying your fine. You only receive jail time if you cannot pay the fine outright. For the moment lets say this cap is 1000 gold. If your account goes inactive (no skills are trained for more than a week or you don't log in for a month), all of your characters inventories on your account will start to lose things until the fines are paid starting with the criminal characte. This includes losing structures you own, and all inventory items/equipment/gold, starting with gold, moving to items/equipment, and ending with structures. The worth of each item is lower than the selling price, and comparable to selling something to an npc instead of an auction house in your run-of-the-mill MMO.
So if you rob 1000 gold from two stores, and kill a person destroying 3000 gold worth of held items. You now have 8000 gold in your bag. A few things could happen:
1. You go 1 year without committing another crime, the two robberies are removed from your record. You are still flagged because of the murder. Somehow you manage to never get caught.
2.You go 1 year without committing another crime, the two robberies are removed from your record. You are still flagged because of the murder. A bounty hunter finds you, you are 'caught' you now owe 6000 gold to the person you killed. The 6000 gold is removed from your inventor/bank/wherever it is, and transferred to the person you killed.
3. You are caught by a bounty hunter. You owe the murdered player 6000 gold, and each shop owner 2000 gold (total= 10,000 gold) but you only have 8000 gold. You lose all current money and have a cap of 1000 gold for your wallet. Until that additional 2000 gold is paid, you are taxed 50% on all sums of money that enter your possession until all damaged parties get their payment. If you get more than 1000 gold, all income is diverted to pay off the damaged parties.
Thoughts, criticisms, other ideas?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd like to see options available to player kingdoms on how they're going to deal with lawbreakers, rather than have automatic, across the board, in-game mechanics.
If you were to put this in place across the board, though, you'd essentially be bringing law and order to a setting that is designed to be a wild frontier, with pockets of kingdoms representing vastly different ideas.
I think what you described could be a template that was available to a player kingdom that wanted a lawful good society with a strong emphasis on deterring criminal activity.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So let's now put this thread in the context of the already expressed desire from GW to make PFO's setting one where laws are only enforced in lawful areas.
You may very well eventually end up with a game where PvP is "fully open, and also rarely used", but they've made it clear that for 99% of the game's region it will be up to the players to realize that, not GW.
This is what GW have said they're aiming for:
Some chartered companies will become world renowned. They may be mercenaries called in to tip the balance of a fight, or a guild of assassins that strikes fear into any who are marked for death. They may enforce the law, tracking down criminals and bringing swift justice to the evildoers.
One thing I'm not seeing in your original post that might (or might not) clear up what you're asking for is discussion about where these hypothetical acts occur. By using the word "crime", am I to assume you are using it in the way GW does in their blogs to mean something that happens inside an established settlement that is contrary to their hard coded laws? Or do you mean it in a more modern sense that law enforcement extends pretty much everywhere?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also, I'm curious about whether you intend to remain a ranger/bounty hunter even after the bounty hunting business has dried up. I know you intend to focus more on berry picking and stuff, but when the players realize it's no longer worth it to murder inside settlements and go outside to do their killing/griefing where the bounty system has no effect, would you consider the assassin's path to right the wrongs being committed against your fellow Seven Veilers?
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems there's "centralized authority" with the NPC guards so that's definitely part of the picture so far. And bounty-hunters could be given contracts on a murderer indefinitely if the player really wishes to punish that player. It's logical for a "judiciary system" as OP mentions is considered along with reparations to victims. I think there may be something like this mentioned to correct a change of alignement/status? I'm cautious of jail-time because any time in game even if it's under sufferance should be productive time for that player ie they must be doing something, perhaps as a chain-gang party of criminals or a dangerous (magical) geas to fulfil? Perhaps something like this with some player-run judicial positions in a Kingdom to doll out the magical contract for criminals. Another option would be straight up "banishment from the realm", with KOS edict if caught trespassing. Dump all your criminals each week in a neighbour's kingdom or get them sign up for the city watch with a rusty spear?
As to pvp outside lawful areas, I guess parties could cooperate or compete due to pve mobs or lack of scarcity? It's probably when resources become higher demand and higher competition that organized companies will start poaching off each other or organized pvp will occur. That's probably occupational hazard and sufficient guards should be hired to ward off bandits or roaming mobs where it's a free for all. Escalation of conflicts is probably bad for business, if it's slowing an operation down also?
In terms of fines, maybe if bounty-hunters have a specialism eg a man-capture weapon or such weapon to bring criminals outside the arm of the law back to face unfinished justice, this could be where those fit in quite well: IE criminals always face life on the run/put some distance between where they strike next.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Another question: How do you plan to deal with the following hypothetical situation?
Your guild is sitting down, resting, in a tavern in your own settlement. It is a lawful settlement. One of your guildies has a price on his head: a bounty. He's been engaged in some naughty criminal behavior somewhere else and hasn't told you guys.
Suddenly the door bursts open and three bounty hunters charge in swords drawn and arrows loosed. One arrow hits your guildie who flees and calls for you to help him. Your guild members present out number the bounty hunters 3 to 1. You jump in and help and your guildie who was the target of the bounty hunters scores a killing blow on one bounty hunter as the other two flee the scene.
But wait, helping criminals commit crimes (ie. killing bounty hunters on legitimate business inside a lawful settlement) flags the whole group of you as criminals. And then the bounty hunters bring in the rest of their friends outside, who were waiting for just that, and butcher the whole lot of you and get away with it. In your own tavern. In your own settlement.
Eventually, you find out your guildie was working with them all along and helped set the whole thing up.
Just throwing out a few thoughts on the actual implications of a game world that has truly open PvP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But wait, helping criminals commit crimes (ie. killing bounty hunters on legitimate business inside a lawful settlement) flags the whole group of you as criminals. And then the bounty hunters bring in the rest of their friends outside, who were waiting for just that, and butcher the whole lot of you and get away with it. In your own tavern. In your own settlement.
As far as I know, you can't get a criminal flag inside your own settlement. Killing a random group of strangers in your settlements tavern while they are getting a drink I don't believe is a criminal flag. As far as I know criminal flagging can only happen in NPC high sec areas, of which your settlements probably cannot be built.
When it comes to player civilizations I just don't see NPC lawful rules as possible. If a mine is right next to your civilization and you don't want strangers draining it, you have to be able to kill them if they try. At least my general interpretation is the criminal law is specifically related to NPC territory. Territory owned by players is more of a civil law, made and enforced by the chartered company who lives there.
But more important, the criminal flag has always been described as something all players can see. You would know as you are hanging out with your friend talking to him that he is criminally flagged, and thus could chose whether you want to accept the penalty and help him, or just sit there arms folded and tell your friend, he got himself into that mess, it is time to pay the price.
Now if the bounty flag has outlasted the criminal flag, then aiding should not be a criminal flag activity outside of NPC territory,
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Goblin Squad Member
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From the blog:
These PC enforcement agents will have to evolve over time and will be less efficient than automatic systems, but they'll still be a credible threat, and the more organized a settlement becomes, the bigger that threat will be.
So you're correct that it can't happen in your own settlement, but it can still happen in an NPC settlement.
You would know as you are hanging out with your friend talking to him that he is criminally flagged
That may or may not be so. There have been no comments on recognizing criminal flags.
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Goblin Squad Member
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From the blog:These PC enforcement agents will have to evolve over time and will be less efficient than automatic systems, but they'll still be a credible threat, and the more organized a settlement becomes, the bigger that threat will be.So you're correct that it can't happen in your own settlement, but it can still happen in an NPC settlement.
Well if your friend is in an NPC settlement with a criminal flag... the marshals will be jumping him long before the bounty hunters arrive. Now if he just has a bounty, you should catch a hint by the fact that the attackers don't have a criminal flag after the first time they hit your friend, and that it pops a warning when you try to attack them, saying this attack will flag you as a criminal. (as they have stated numerous times that it will warn you before you do a criminal act, and that it will be impossible to accidentally get a criminal flag)
You would know as you are hanging out with your friend talking to him that he is criminally flaggedThat may or may not be so. There have been no comments on recognizing criminal flags.
Maybe no blog posts, but they have in forum posts
The effects of being flagged as a criminal are:* If the Region is Controlled by a lawful, neutral or good NPC Faction, NPC Marshals will be dispatched to kill the Criminal
* The Criminal can be killed by anyone without any penalty
* The Criminal will display a visual indication of Criminal status
* NPCs may attack the Criminal on sight
* Lawful and neutral NPCs won't offer Quests to the Criminal
* Lawful and neutral Settlements will be closed to the Criminal
* Criminals cannot use Fast Travel
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Goblin Squad Member
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Interesting....
Is that really going to be an issue for your guild though? I mean you already have one player planning on playing an assassin, so how can you say you'll automatically not associate with criminals?
Who's guild? Pocket ace (the chartered company I intend to make) hasn't made an official post yet outside of the original mass guilds thread, and I'm still trying to get my lazy friends to join the forums). I'm assuming you are refereeing to 7th veil or Legioneres. Really until we get the details on assassination it is far too early to tell what can and can't be done with assassins mixing with the general populous. Will they be able to avoid criminal flags etc... we just don't know. Ryan has stated it is a challenge and they are in deep discussion of how to allow assassinations to be possible but not excessively common, and really until we hear the game-plan for such, it is far to early to speculate whether assassins can or can't work with the common folk.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Another question: How do you plan to deal with the following hypothetical situation?
Your guild is sitting down, resting, in a tavern in your own settlement. It is a lawful settlement. One of your guildies has a price on his head: a bounty. He's been engaged in some naughty criminal behavior somewhere else and hasn't told you guys.
Suddenly the door bursts open and three bounty hunters charge in swords drawn and arrows loosed. One arrow hits your guildie who flees and calls for you to help him. Your guild members present out number the bounty hunters 3 to 1. You jump in and help and your guildie who was the target of the bounty hunters scores a killing blow on one bounty hunter as the other two flee the scene.
But wait, helping criminals commit crimes (ie. killing bounty hunters on legitimate business inside a lawful settlement) flags the whole group of you as criminals. And then the bounty hunters bring in the rest of their friends outside, who were waiting for just that, and butcher the whole lot of you and get away with it. In your own tavern. In your own settlement.
Eventually, you find out your guildie was working with them all along and helped set the whole thing up.
Just throwing out a few thoughts on the actual implications of a game world that has truly open PvP.
Bounty hunters can't attack INSIDE a lawful NPC settlement. (Not "There are punishments for it" a la hisec EvE, but "doesn't happen", as in Diablo 2 towns.) They have no immunity from guards in your settlement, unless your settlement rules provide an exception for bounty hunters. You can't accidentally set a criminal flag. Griefing will be dealt with harshly on the metagame level.
I'm sure I missed some of the systems in place that would prevent that particular scenario from happening often enough to worry about.
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Goblin Squad Member
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They can attack inside a lawful NPC zone, just not the innermost section where killing is impossible.
And I wasn't talking about someone accidentally becoming a criminal. You have a guildie who will be pursuing a career of doing it on purpose. Defend/assist him in a lawful region and you get nailed too.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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They can attack inside a lawful NPC zone, just not the innermost section where killing is impossible.
And I wasn't talking about someone accidentally becoming a criminal. You have a guildie who will be pursuing a career of doing it on purpose. Defend/assist him in a lawful region and you get nailed too.
So, inside the tavern, like in the example, is out.
Also, there is no chance that they can fool you into becoming criminals: You will know before you aid the mole that he is a hunted criminal, and that defending him will result in also becoming a criminal. You might decide to do so anyway, but that's outside the realm of accident or trickery.
What do they gain in your example?
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Goblin Squad Member
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why is inside the tavern out? You can't build taverns in the wilderness close to NPC towns?
So my question was how you would handle such a situation. The answer I seem to be getting is that you would not defend such a person. That's all I was getting at.
If you do though, to answer "what would they gain?" - just a chance to grief legally. But of course only if you defend your buddy. And only if you can be buddies with a criminal :-)
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Goblin Squad Member
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And I wasn't talking about someone accidentally becoming a criminal. You have a guildie who will be pursuing a career of doing it on purpose. Defend/assist him in a lawful region and you get nailed too.
Right but I am pretty sure from the wording of not being possible to accidentally become a criminal, it will warn you when you try to defend/assist the criminal in the lawful region, if you ignore that warning then yes you are a criminal, it isn't going to be a Oh crap I didn't realize that guy I just healed was a criminal now I am one too.
IE much like the PVP cancer that happened on WoW PVE servers when you miss the tiny marker on someones healthbar and heal them... supprise you are pvp now too. The greater thing is I still have to question, is why on earth is this hypothetical criminal friend in lawful NPC faction territory. He knows he's boned there if a marshal is near, or bounty hunters etc... Compaining that if you follow and help a criminal who is hanging out in a lawful town, is like complaining that your freshly rolled character, following another character to fight the toughest dragon in the game and noting that you die from following someone making a stupid move.
I doubt there is any harm in following a criminally flagged person outside of the lawful NPC world. but a criminal with any remote sense, would not go back into the factions territory until after his record is cleaned or if he is planning another nefarious activity. You don't walk back into a bank that has your picture up on the wanted posters, just to open a checking account, unless you are very very very stupid.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Blaeringr
I am assuming this question is aimed at the Seventh Veil. Any trained killers we might have in company work for the company. Since we are not mercenaries, they are not "blades for hire". Unsanctioned PvP action that negatively effects the company will be considered equal to other acts which negatively effect the company such as stealing from us. While not yet codified, I imagine it will result in punitive actions up to and including reparations to the victim(s) and/or removal from the company.
We do understand it is within the duty of company's leadership to insure there is plenty of opportunities for play, in a variety of play styles, especially in a sandbox. As such, we understand it is just as important to have enemies as it is to have friends so there will be no lack of PvP opportunities. We will adjust and modify our roles and positions as necessary to insure this consideration meets the demands of our member base.
I personally see targeted strikes as a valid solution for warfare only and perhaps intend to keep a short list of leaders in rival and/or antagonistic organizations available for any within the company who wish to ply their trade.
While perhaps more abstract than you were looking for, I think this answers your question(s)...or, at minimum allows you to logically deduct your own answers regarding our stances and probable responses.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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why is inside the tavern out? You can't build taverns in the wilderness close to NPC towns?
So my question was how you would handle such a situation. The answer I seem to be getting is that you would not defend such a person. That's all I was getting at.
If you do though, to answer "what would they gain?" - just a chance to grief legally. But of course only if you defend your buddy. And only if you can be buddies with a criminal :-)
There is no way to grief legally. There will be ways to grief within the programming restrictions of the game, but not the human-mediated metagame.
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Goblin Squad Member
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go outside to do their killing/griefing where the bounty system has no effect, would you consider the assassin's path to right the wrongs being committed against your fellow Seven Veilers?
From my understanding the bounty system will still be in place, regardless of where you get killed you can put a bounty on someone's head. If I'm wrong, please direct me to where that is in black and white so I can educate myself.
And the Cæruxi wield steel in many different styles... but I'm sure you've already aware of this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thank you Onishi. I'd also like to add what was said in the blog:
Pathfinder Online's bounty system is a lot more selective. When you are murdered—that is, killed unlawfully—you will have the option to place a bounty on your killer's head.And in case that isn't clear enough, let's look at another quote that clarifies "killed unlawfully" a bit more. The first line clears it up, and the rest explains why they want it that way:
Killing an opponent as a part of a declared war, or in an area that does not have laws against murder, will not trigger the bounty system. The intent is to deter characters from arbitrarily attacking and killing others simply for fun. Of course, those who simply wish to avoid any PvP at all will choose to remain within the very high security zones close to NPC settlements where PvP is effectively impossible. Such players will have fewer opportunities to find adventure or to earn treasure than their braver and less risk-averse peers, but they'll be safe from griefers.
Both quotes from To live and Die in the River Kingdoms.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To the best of my understanding:
- Bounty Hunters will be able to kill their victims even in Lawful NPC Settlements. The Marshals will only respond to a criminal flag for a limited amount of time. It is quite possible for a character to no longer have an active criminal flag, but to still have a valid bounty.
- It will be impossible for anyone to accidentally gain a criminal flag. If our companion requests assistance, and the first thing we see when we try to assist him is a warning that we're about to be flagged as criminals, then we'll make an informed decision at that point as to whether or not to proceed.