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I'm not overly familiar with gestalt characters and have seen various threads addressing combinations of classes for this variant of the game. Could someone give me a run down of how gestalt rules work? I'm aware it was common during the 3.x era for DnD however I'm unsure if it works just the same for Pathfinder with their various changes to the ruleset. Thanks ahead of time.
I trust someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but here's my understanding of the gestalt rules:
Level up as two classes at once. Take the class abilities and class skills of both. Take the better of BaB, HP, and skill points of each. I believe you take the better from each save, but I'm not as sure on this one.
Oh, and you can't take a combo sort of prestige class, like the Mystic Theurge.
Is there any support available to HeroLab for ease of use when creation gestalt characters?
There isn't. There have apparently been multiple requests for it, but the dev's over see that as a low priority.
EpicViper has the gist of it, though. You effectively get to make two builds, and take the best of both worlds in terms of static numbers, as well as taking the class abilities of both.
I believe there are general ground-rules about not allowing two full casting classes, as well.
I think you're wrong about the twin-caster thing. But why bother, anyway? Much more fun to blend in some martial prowess to go with your magic, imo. I suppose, if you're really intent on a theme, like nasty necromancy, that a cleric/wizard (with Death domain and Necromancy specialty school) would attain it well... but on the rare occasion that I have a GM willing to run for gestalts, I personally go for more variety in my abilities. Antimagic Field REALLY sucks when you're a double-caster...
I could be wrong, or maybe that was just how the few DM's I've seen actually run gestalt ruled on caster class combos.
: shrugs :
At the end of the day, it's more or less one big house-rule, so the GM making that call one way or the other would be up to them.
Gestalt is a variant rule introduced in the 3E Unearthed Arcana. It is available online as part of the open gaming license.
I and many others really like gestalt. It helps make smaller parties viable, it gives characters more options without increasing their actual per round offensive capacity much (still have the same amount of actions), and I've found it to have pleasantly welcome "side effects" that make spellcasting seem less impressive. Mostly due to enemies tending to have higher SR and saves, since they're either gestalt themselves or are higher CR than monsters you'd use in a normal game.
I do suggest you place some sensible limitations on gestalt rules to prevent abuse (I can provide you with such limitation suggestions if you want), but as long as you do that, it's a wonderful high powered system.
You can make it work on Hero Lab you just have to customize it a lot. It will not do it for you. You'll need to use a lot of "Permanent Adjustments" in the "Personal" tab and use a lot of the Adjustments on the "Adjust" tab. Doable, just a little more work.
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Gestalt can be very fun to play, but does require some ground rules to make it fun for everyone.
If you have min-maxers in your group, beware they don't overshadow other players/characters in terms of sheer power and taking on multiple roles.
When I have done gestalt games I make sure there is a common theme tying the characters together. Usually this manifests through a shared gestalt class. For example, I have a done a "Thieves Guild" game where every character was X/Rogue. I.e. everyone had to have have Rogue as their second class.
I am currently doing a sandbox gestalt game where every character is X/Oracle. The characters have mysterious tattoos on their necks and their Oracle abilities, setting them apart from the norm. The characters also occasionally 'jaunt' (teleport) in and out of the group. Where they go, they don't recall. (This is a mechanic to allow players to attend sessions as they please. If they miss a night, their character goes 'pop' until they return. This also allows some extra mystery. Who put those tattoos on their necks? Why do they have extra powers? Where do they go when they 'jaunt'? Are all these elements tied together? Provides some meta-plot on top of the sandbox element).
Cheers
I'm thinking about trying to run these rules for a campaign for my wife. I like the concept of a solo campaign and most importantly, something that my wife will enjoy playing alone without feeling the need to have other roles.
I like Gestalt as well. It reminds me of 2nd ed AD&D's various multiclasses:
Fighter/Thief
Fighter/Cleric
Fighter/Mage
Mage/Thief
Fighter/Mage/Thief
Fighter/Illusionist
Illusionist/Thief
Fighter/Druid
Cleric/Ranger
Cleric/Mage
Fighter/Mage/Cleric
Fighter/Mage/Thief.
As such, I tend to allow dual casters with following limitations: a full caster of one type (divine, acane or psionic) can only gestalt with a partial caster of the same type. Full caster combos must be of different types. Other than that the combo rules are the same as that of a standard multi-class (no gestalt specialsit wizards).
In the same spirit, I set the xp rates differently in a gestalt game. Single classes use the Fast rate, dual gestalts use the Medium xp rate and triple gestalts use the Slow rate.
These xp rates stay the same even if the character later takes a prestige class instead.
These are a few sites with gestalt info:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870266/Gestalt_Resource ,_the_combos_Wizards_dont_want_you_to_know
http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/s oveliorsage/unearthedGestalt.html#_top
http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/mowglis-rpg-repository/wikis/buildin g-a-gestalt-character
It's a fun idea but complex, most of my players do not share my enthusiasm, just for that reason.
Two points I'd considered: allowing standard multiclassing at the faster 3.5 rate and allowing two full casters of the same type (arcane/arcane, divine/divine; ie Cleric/Druid, Sorcerer/Wizard, but still no specialist wizard combos)as well and requiring all full caster combos to use the slow rate.
My logic on the xp rates: the more classes you concentrate on at the same time, the harder it is to advance in any of them, however when you use standard multiclassing, you are actually concentrating on each class less than a single classed or gestalt character. That's why two full caster combos are either not possible or at the slowest rate.
I run Gestalt characters in my PbP and I used to in my local game.
My advice is to only use gestalts with homebrew content. If you try running such characters thru a published adventure, then you'll be doing so much work rebalancing encounters that it may actually require more GM prep time than if you just came up with the encounters on your own.
I also think Gestalt will work best with homebrew content.
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For those who've run gestalt solo-campaigns, how did you find you had to adjust the CR of the encounters? Was there a set amount you could add to the CR (like, say, party level +2)?
I'm curious because I might want to run something like that for my fiancee. She would most likely be a fighter/wizard(bladesinger) gestalt
CR is an art and not a science. In a small party, especially solo, abilities that take out a character from the battle like frightened or stunned, or worse instant "kill" them like baleful polymorph or paralysis are much MUCH worse than in a standard game and should be avoided.
Since it's a solo game, defeat should probably more often mean failing to save someone in time or getting captured (only to break out later) and the like.
I wouldn't worry about CR too much. Just err on the side of "not a TPK" and let your player have fun. If that means curb stomping a lot of battles, so be it.
I'm not overly familiar with gestalt characters and have seen various threads addressing combinations of classes for this variant of the game. Could someone give me a run down of how gestalt rules work? I'm aware it was common during the 3.x era for DnD however I'm unsure if it works just the same for Pathfinder with their various changes to the ruleset. Thanks ahead of time.
It's really easy, you just take the best of features in common and the features of both that are not in common of the two classes whenever you level.
It's great for some interesting (powerful) classes.
There are three ways of deciding what classes to choose:
Complimentary abilities: choose two classes that have abilities that complement one another and covers weak points, like fighter/wizard.
Thematic abilities: choose two classes with thematic abilities that enhance one another's, so you gain specialised power, like sorcerer/wizard.
Attribute emphasised abilities: choose two classes that hinge off an attribute they share, such as oracle/paladin (charisma).
I have always wondered how the fighter/wizard gesalt works as the character wouldn't loose arcane spell failure from his armor. Wouldn't that mean that using the fighters heavy armor proficiencies would just mean the wizard's spells fail?
The only other thing I could see is just drop using the armor and use touch spells from a universalist wizard, and grab dex. Even then the character is rather MAD with the nedd for STR, DEX, and INT as well as being a mellee chaster wihtout armor.
Not saying impossible, just that I am admittadely ignorant about how to make such a combination work well.
He can use Mage Armor. Or Mithral of certain light armors. Or do it the expensive way and just apply Still Spell to all the combat oriented spells.
Really, the armor isn't that important. Wizard can just throw up mirror images and miss % and invisibility and the like.
In general with gestalt, I try to have a mostly "passive" side and a more active one. Like Fighter/Wizard. Feats are basically almost all "always-on," spells take actions to use. Again, gestalts still have the same action limits, so having a dual caster isn't necessarily the best idea. My other general rule is: If I walk out of the gestalt combo with neither full BAB nor full (9th level) casting...I've done ****ed up. I know a lot of medium BAB non- or partial caster combos seem really cool. But I seriously think you're gimping yourself to mix 2 of those instead of one of them w/ a more combat or casting-oriented class...
Yeah, I had a Wizard//Ranger (actually was a campaign variant int-based sorc w/ wiz bonus feats, but whatever) gestalt previously. It's a nice combo. d10 HD, full BAB, 6+int skills, all good saves, bunch of bonus feats, and just having certain spells on the ranger list is useful (like cure light wounds) for wands and such.
I still really like Druid//Monk, though.
Current gestalt character is a Menhir Savant Druid // Ranger archer, using a bunch of 3E alt. class features to remove overlaps. Pretty awesome. Spends all day as an earth or air elemental shooting a bow for lots of damage.
Paladin/Oracle can be pretty useful. Helped one of my players spec out a Warrior of Light/Oracle of Flame and at 7th level they can now 'cast' Raise Dead [essentially] for free once a day via Ultimate Mercy: Tyralor Amthyrian
As can Paladin/Sorcerer, working off charisma also and very complimentary.
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Barbarian is tough to gestalt well, due to rage not working with casting nor bardic performance; Magus, whose whole schtick is fighting and casting simultaneously, is right out. Other casters could work if you stick to long duration buffs and utility spells, and maybe some stuff to throw around before entering the rage. And getting fatigue immunity makes it easier to shift between rage fighting and casting round to round. A raging druid wildshaped into a T-Rex would certainly be interesting, or a raging summoner (synthesist?) perhaps.
But, I think the best gestalt for Barb is the Alchemist. Since extracts aren't spells, there's no limitations, and between rage and mutagen, you might actually be able to equal the eidolon (*shakes fist at those stupid broken summoners*) for sheer freakish strength. Can stick with bombs as a ranged option, or do Vivvisectionist for lots of damage. And of course Beastmorph either way. Best of all, you could name the gestalt combo "Roid Rage." :D
I have always wondered how the fighter/wizard gesalt works as the character wouldn't loose arcane spell failure from his armor. Wouldn't that mean that using the fighters heavy armor proficiencies would just mean the wizard's spells fail?
The only other thing I could see is just drop using the armor and use touch spells from a universalist wizard, and grab dex. Even then the character is rather MAD with the nedd for STR, DEX, and INT as well as being a mellee chaster wihtout armor.
Not saying impossible, just that I am admittadely ignorant about how to make such a combination work well.
The Arcane Armor Training/Mastery feats mitigate this problem somewhat.
Magus/Cleric.
Use that one Arcana so you can channel Harm spells with spellstrike. :D :D :D :D :D :D
I and my group are always sitting around trying to make up gestalt combinations but we never actually play. Ahh... to always be a bridesmaid, never a bride.
Anyway so a few days ago I was just sitting in my chair trying to figure out the most powerful character possible for the sole sake of being disgusting when it hit me. I shouldn't be racking my brain thinking about what the most overpowered character I can make would be, That's what spreadsheets are for!
So here's what I found out. (Listed without regard to synergy)
Full Bab, at least a D10, three good saves, and six skill points a level:
Barbarian with Bard
Cavalier with Bard
Fighter with Bard
Gunslinger with Bard or Inquisitor
Paladin with Bard, Ranger, or Rogue
Ranger with Bard, Cleric, Druid, Inquisitor, Magus, Monk, Oracle, Paladin, Sorcerer, Summoner, Witch, or Wizard
Full Bab, at least a D10, three good saves, and four skill points a level:
Barbarian with Monk
Cavalier with Monk
Fighter with Monk
Gunslinger with Cleric, Druid, Magus, Monk, Oracle, Paladin, Sorcerer, Summoner, Witch, Wizard
Paladin with Alchemist, Gunslinger, Monk
Out of those I listed a few combinations I thought were good:
Barbarian/Monk (Martial Artist) (Raging Flurry. Ouch)
Fighter/Monk (Either two-weapon or brawler archetype, I would not suggest the unarmed archetype)
Paladin/Bard (Saves, Smiting, Healing, Spells, and Singing. All Charisma based)
Paladin/Monk (So MAD, but you could make your save against "Rocks fall" and take no damage)
Paladin/Ninja (I'm the Dark Knight! I'm Batman!)
Ranger/Druid (Take the natural weapon style path from APG)
Ranger/Inquisitor (They just seem to dovetail so well IMHO)
Ranger/Monk (Two-Weapon fighting Beast, wisdom synergy)
A few honorable mentions:
These ones don't have all three good saves. They do have full Bab and at least 4 skill points per level
Barbarian/Antipaladin (Just the imagery is too cool)
Cavalier or Paladin/Barbarian (Take all those mounted rage powers)
Cavalier/Fighter (Dragoon) or Monk (Sohei) (Hey I'm an archetype based around having a mount. Now I actually have a mount!)
Gunslinger/Ninja (Just pump your dexterity into the atmosphere and relax. Learn to love sneak attack at range while invisible)
Paladin/Oracle (Cleric buffs with Paladin Charisma synergy)
Only two skill points per level
Paladin/Sorcerer (Yeah, it's an oldie but a goodie)
Medium Bab, but three good saves and at least six skill points
Magus/Rogue (Pump Dexterity and grab Weapon Finesse)
Monk/Inquisitor (Evasion and stalwart? All three good saves? Holy Crap)
Mysterious Stranger/Sorcerer would be fun. Just buff charisma for damage and more spells per day.
And the often underutilized and unseen Gestalt-
Wizard/Monk. You need nothing but Wisdom and Int and at least acceptable con. Mage Armor and the Wisdom to AC thing stack, y'know- and you'll constantly move out of enemy range.
Plus Stunning Fist+Shocking Grasp is just awesome to visualize. "Electric Palm Strike! HA!"
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I like gestalt characters for small groups. You do need to make sure you up the CR a little (+1 normal, +2 for some encounters). When I have run a campaign that was a from the start gestalt game I gave more attribute points to help with MAD issues. I have also run a game where the remaining characters were rebuilt as gestalt characters due to losing half the party (one had a child and his wife made him quit, the other joined the military). We finished pretty well, but it is much trickier to run a smaller, higher powered party. Hit points, although higher on average, are still pretty limited, as well as actions.
You can play a Monk/Barbarian if you pick Meanad(from Dreamscarred Press) as a race. Power Rage Flurry!
>.>
<.<
With Pounce!
In one game (the current gestalt one I'm in actually; after over 5 years since it ended due to college ending / people moving, DM got some of us back together online to continue it) it's based on Final Fantasy 1. Plot wise, all horses are chocobos, class names, etc... Anyway, if you're familiar with that game, you know that in the middle of the game, the characters unlock new, greater powers and class up to more powerful classes. He handled that with "spontaneous gestalt" -- we suddeny took on a whole 2nd class gestalt style, granted based on what our character's interests and skills were (so my black mage that had taken a big interest in nature got ranger, for example). He let us retrain feats and skills from the ground up as if we had been gestalt from the start, though not ability scores, to accomodate the massive changes.
I thought that was pretty cool. Through most of the first half of the game, it was a bitter struggle, with us running and hiding a lot, facing several near deaths and one actual death (but we had a single fenix down, so that got fixed). Once we unlocked our greater power, we started to actually feel like the badass world-saving heros we'd need to be to stop the main villains.
A Dwarf Fighter/Cleric gestalt is pretty solid.
Master Arminas
StreamOfTheSky: DM Stormraven actually did something rather similar in his Great Southern Isles PbP. Basically a goddess ended up imbuing the party as her chosen champions unlocking their more mystical abilities. My ranger unlocked her latent Djinni abilities (sorcerer), Eric's rogue regained her connection to the divine (cleric), Eben's monk became able to tap into his psychic reserves (psychic warrior I think), and Stormy's primary NPC had his mind opened to the mysteries of the cosmos (a 3PP loremaster-type class).
In my own campaigns, the only time I've ever allowed gestalt characters is if the PCs are similarly blessed by the gods. Using Rumble in the Jungle as an example, Eric's 'succubus' PC is the daughter of the Queen of the 79th layer of the Abyss, Eben's ranger/druid was the offspring of an elven queen and a powerful animalistic fey, Stormy's cleric/paladin was the chosen champion of the sun goddess, and my primary NPC is elven royalty and the chosen of the goddess of inspiration. PCs added since Eben and Stormy's departure have included the aforementioned Paladin/Oracle (a royal prince with a dark past), Jason's dwarven inquisitor/fighter (something of a tragic hero), Cam's fighter/rogue (son of a great elven general), and my friend Rob's cleric/rogue (a former platoon healer who has found a new, higher calling).
So basically, the way in which I judge if a group of PCs should be gestalt or not is largely determined by the theme of the game. If it's supposed to be a gritty game (or to run a published adventure), it's 20 point buy, standard progression like in my local game. If instead the goal is for the characters to play the part of superheroes, then we're talking 40+ point buy and gestalt like in Rumble. And yes, I definitely consider gestalts to be superheroes in their own right.
You can play a Monk/Barbarian if you pick Meanad(from Dreamscarred Press) as a race. Power Rage Flurry!
>.>
<.<With Pounce!
Meanad Barbarian|Wilder is the best combo there - just imagine a wilder with rage using wild-surged powers to buff with...
Other good psionic combos: Psychic Warrior|Monk, Psion|Wizard, and soulknife|fighter (or any other combat character) would be devastating...
You don't need to be a Meanad for Barbarian/Wilder though! ;)
Ranger/Rouge was devastating to the Hydra when I flanked it once in a game. When my friend, a fighter/rogue at the time, and I flanked something... Well, we got called the Blender a few times.
Sorcerer(Dragon Disciple)/Barbarian could be an interesting mix. Use Form of the Dragon and then add all your Rage Powers to it.
There are a lot of fun mixes out there.
…based on Final Fantasy 1.
Hehe - my last campaign was exactly this. Unfortunately, it ended early due to out of game conflicts, but one day… But yes, I was planning on using the Gestalt rules at that exact juncture. Final Fantasy I is an amazing match to the Eberron Campaign Setting.
Bard/Master Summoner is downright devastating. Add in a Cleric/Oracle with the Healing Domain and the Life Mystery and you might not even need a meatshield PC after a few levels.
If the recent posts about how people in a bar would react to watching someone get charmed are any indication... I can imagine the horror they'd experience witnessing a first hand RageLanceFlurryPounce...
First you hear the scream... then the flying insane man... who lands atop a nearby bar patron and begins lancing him in the chest faster than a sewing machine...
Would the bar patron think the attacker was... EVIL?
There are a bunch of gestalt type threads on the boards.
Anyone interested in the gestalt feel, and great fully fleshed out combinations like what Douglas Mawhinney listed above may like what my associates and I have been developing over the last few years at our MultiClass Archetypes Wiki site.
You can also check out our MCA Thread where we will actually help you develop your own gestalt-esque MultiClass Archetype. There's been a number of messageboarder who have come over and developed their own with our help. Gestalters may find some useful tips or ideas there too.