There has actually been a lot said here since the last time I checked the thread that I would like to respond to but unfortunately life is picking up speed right now and I’m finding myself without the leisure time I’ve had in the past few weeks so I will just respond to a recent post that quotes me.
One: Wary. White people whom haven’t had extensive interactions with black people often act this way. When talking to a black person, no matter whom they might be or what the situation is there is a tightness around their eyes and their shoulders are up. The primary concern on their mind is to not come off racist and to prove that “They have no problem with black people.”To a certain point, I think its OK to be careful and tactful upon meeting someone we do not know and hope not to make a bad impression.
It all has to do with fear of the unknown, fear to disappoint others, fear to be rejected or to be branded as something you aren't (which relates to a fear of being treated unjustly); its not good, but its human nature. It acknowledges that racism/sexism/xenophobia are issues, but familiarity only comes with exposition to an unfamiliar subject, be it human or otherwise.
I bet most people would be "wary" in presence of...
- their new boss,
- their new father/mother in law,
- their new insurance broker (well, they might have other reasons to be wary about...),
- their Japanese/Afghan/African/[insert unfamiliar non-occidental country] correspondent visiting their own country,
- ... and off course, gays/lesbians and black people when you have not been (knowingly) exposed to many. Its easy to scorn at "wariness" when you are yourself familiar with something/someone another person is unfamiliar with, but I see it as a somewhat natural reaction.
For those white people whom have used approach 1. I don’t think you have bad intentions or are a bad person. In fact I said right in the quote that you do have noble intentions. What makes this approach “mind boggling bad” Is that, unlike being wary around your new boss or mother in law, there are far more factors going into this than just your average meeting of two individuals. In the United States at least, racism has played a gigantic factor in white/black relations and even if this is the first time your shy, unassuming self has truly interacted with a black person and you feel like you’re talking to a magical unicorn from rainbow fairy land that you don’t want to risk scaring away (which, fair enough, new experiences are new experiences) you should be warned that in an effort to not appear racist you might be successfully delivering the hard sell that you are, in fact, a racist.
On another note I had the friend I am staying with right now read this thread last night and while he liked it he pointed out what the fundamental misunderstanding people are having of me is and that I really shouldn’t be letting it stand like I am if being understood is my goal. More on that later when I have time.
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I think some of the point of all of that, and certainly the point of my post about being socially awkward, is that sometimes what is a natural approach with every single person you ever meet is taken as approach 1. Sometimes you have to take a step back and look at the context.
That's a lot of why I really appreciated the perspective about what it's like from the other side of that because it really helped me see where certain people were coming from. From my side it seemed like there were certain people I've met over time who were really angry over nothing I could see and that was very intimidating, adding to the wariness, which was more 'please don't yell at me just for being white' than 'See, I'm not racist'. I have several bi-racial family members and growing up around them helped me learn to be equally uncomfortable around everyone regardless of race (still shy, can't help it) so it was a real shock to me the first time I was on the receiving end of that angry response.
I think some of the point of all of that, and certainly the point of my post about being socially awkward, is that sometimes what is a natural approach with every single person you ever meet is taken as approach 1. Sometimes you have to take a step back and look at the context.
That's a lot of why I really appreciated the perspective about what it's like from the other side of that because it really helped me see where certain people were coming from. From my side it seemed like there were certain people I've met over time who were really angry over nothing I could see and that was very intimidating, adding to the wariness, which was more 'please don't yell at me just for being white' than 'See, I'm not racist'. I have several bi-racial family members and growing up around them helped me learn to be equally uncomfortable around everyone regardless of race (still shy, can't help it) so it was a real shock to me the first time I was on the receiving end of that angry response.
Interesting perspective. I have a hard time understanding people who are not as outgoing as I am, so this helps.
I'm wary with everyone. I'm shy. That's really all there is to it. :)
I am reasonably certain I am not the only socially awkward person on these boards either.
You'd be correct about that. I always end up saying or doing precisely what I shouldn't.
To be honest, in some ways I consider myself lucky. My parents aren't hateful of transgenders or homosexuals (though it hasn't clicked that I am one), and I live on one of the Job Corps centers that actually enforces the rules on discrimination. I get bullied all the time, but it usually isn't related to gender identity or sexual orientation.
I think some of the point of all of that, and certainly the point of my post about being socially awkward, is that sometimes what is a natural approach with every single person you ever meet is taken as approach 1. Sometimes you have to take a step back and look at the context.
That's a lot of why I really appreciated the perspective about what it's like from the other side of that because it really helped me see where certain people were coming from. From my side it seemed like there were certain people I've met over time who were really angry over nothing I could see and that was very intimidating, adding to the wariness, which was more 'please don't yell at me just for being white' than 'See, I'm not racist'. I have several bi-racial family members and growing up around them helped me learn to be equally uncomfortable around everyone regardless of race (still shy, can't help it) so it was a real shock to me the first time I was on the receiving end of that angry response.
I have a few moments before I have to take off so I can respond to this. Yes you are completely, totally, and 100% correct. This particular problem is a RELATIONAL problem instead of a "guilty party" problem and I am fully aware of this.
On another note, while talking to specific social groups works really well for me in real life, it does not come off well here in the toneless internet so I am completely abandoning it in the future. From now on I am only going to address what each individual says here and ignore trends completely. Apparently while a message board is in some ways like a crowded room, if everything you say is taken 50 different ways by 50 different individuals your best bet seems to just be to have multiple, simultaneous personal conversations at once.
To be honest, in some ways I consider myself lucky. My parents aren't hateful of transgenders or homosexuals (though it hasn't clicked that I am one), and I live on one of the Job Corps centers that actually enforces the rules on discrimination. I get bullied all the time, but it usually isn't related to gender identity or sexual orientation.
I would be very interested to hear your life story. If you feel comfortable enough here, perhaps you should post an in depth bit about yourself sometime.
I get bullied all the time, but it usually isn't related to gender identity or sexual orientation.
I'm glad to see your irl friend-making ability is as strong as your online one, Mama Kelsey.
What makes this approach “mind boggling bad” Is that, unlike being wary around your new boss or mother in law, there are far more factors going into this than just your average meeting of two individuals.
Indeed, and of those factors, the principal element is hatred of the other as opposed to mere incomprehension or unfamiliarity (which can but necessarily or systematically lead to hate). You are correct in saying that racism, sexism, homophobia etc. differ from meeting your new boss or in-laws in the sense that there are no underlined assumption that the other might hate you, or that the other might perceive that you hate him/her.
Nevertheless, I do think that wariness is a natural reaction which IMO only becomes mind bogglingly bad after a long enough exposition to remove the unfamiliar element of the relationship. And as other posters have mentioned, it may even be a personality trait that has nothing to do with the identity of the other or at the very least, take a longer time "getting familiar" with others regardless of who they are.
'findel
I get bullied all the time, but it usually isn't related to gender identity or sexual orientation.I'm glad to see your irl friend-making ability is as strong as your online one, Mama Kelsey.
I actually do have my share of friends. There are, however, some people who like to bully others here, and I'm both gullible and annoying, so I get targeted. Hopefully the meds I'm going on in a couple weeks will help me control my uber ADHD, and therefore not be so annoying and impulsive, improving my ability to make friends a great deal.
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To be honest, in some ways I consider myself lucky. My parents aren't hateful of transgenders or homosexuals (though it hasn't clicked that I am one), and I live on one of the Job Corps centers that actually enforces the rules on discrimination. I get bullied all the time, but it usually isn't related to gender identity or sexual orientation.I would be very interested to hear your life story. If you feel comfortable enough here, perhaps you should post an in depth bit about yourself sometime.
Asking me to talk about myself? That’s something I love to do.
I’m 21 years old, and I’m both a male to female transgender (preop) and a lesbian. I’m from San Jose, California, and I first got into RPGs when I was 15 when a friend showed me how to play Dungeons and Dragons. Since then, I have expanded into D20 Modern and World of Darkness, though I have limited experience with either system despite having many books for both. I switched over to Pathfinder last year once I had the money for the Core Rulebook, after deciding that I didn’t want to learn a new system and that the Open Game License was very important to me. I also like how Paizo treats customers.
My life has been alternatively good and bad. I have severe impulse control issues, which is the main reason I have a hard time making friends. I am cool at first, but then I get excited and act stupid. This caused me a lot of trouble with bullying as a kid and right now. I’ve always felt something wrong with my body, but I didn’t really come to terms with the fact that it’s transgenderism until I was 18. My interest in a mixture of masculine and feminine activities and homosexuality made it very hard for me to tell that I was transgendered, to say nothing of others. I can’t even say how I finally figured it out, because I’m not really sure what tipped me off in the end. I just sort of grew into the realization over a couple weeks. Luckily for me, my family isn’t against trans or gay people, but the fact that I happen to be one of them doesn’t seem to have clicked with them yet.
After graduating high school, I was pretty lost as to what to do next. I never did do any college applications because I knew I didn’t want to do that, and nobody wanted to hire me for a fast food or retail job. I eventually decided to try the military, and I enlisted in the US Navy as an AECF. I loved being in the Navy a great deal, but my aforementioned impulse issues eventually earned me a medical discharge. So, to get both an education and help with my issues, I tried to get into the Job Corps program, and was accepted into the Trapper Creek center in Montana, which is where I am right now. I’m currently waiting for a slot to open up in their Culinary Arts program, because that sort of career appeals to me greatly.
I have a deep interest in military matters, as well as foreign cultures, fantasy, cooking, history, animals, nature, and music. I enjoy bike riding, hiking/running/walking, RPGs, and video games, and have a tendency to eat way too much, which I why I am quite a bit overweight I'm hoping to get culinary training from Job Corps, then move on to college, which is what I should have done in the first place instead of playing the whle "Not going to school anymore, nope, nope, nope!" game when I was a senior in high school.
What makes this approach “mind boggling bad” Is that, unlike being wary around your new boss or mother in law, there are far more factors going into this than just your average meeting of two individuals.Indeed, and of those factors, the principal element is hatred of the other as opposed to mere incomprehension or unfamiliarity (which can but necessarily or systematically lead to hate). You are correct in saying that racism, sexism, homophobia etc. differ from meeting your new boss or in-laws in the sense that there are no underlined assumption that the other might hate you, or that the other might perceive that you hate him/her.
Nevertheless, I do think that wariness is a natural reaction which IMO only becomes mind bogglingly bad after a long enough exposition to remove the unfamiliar element of the relationship. And as other posters have mentioned, it may even be a personality trait that has nothing to do with the identity of the other or at the very least, take a longer time "getting familiar" with others regardless of who they are.
'findel
Hehe, apparently I can't stay away from this thread even when doing stuff.
I agree with most of what you are saying but I think the primary issue is actually fear more than hatred. I could make a comprehensive list of the fears I see but I don't have much time right now. The true reason I think this interaction is bad is because it often cuts out the chance of getting to know the person altogether and while we have plenty of opportunities to get to know people we are forced to deal with many of the white/black relationship opportunities I've seen have basically been one shot deals ruined by misunderstandings. Is this nothing but a personal experience? Yes. But it makes me sad, so many great people missing each other because of confusion! AAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!! Hehe anyway I apologize for the way I've been approaching some of these conversations, I too will attempt to alter my "mind boggling bad" approaches!
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…personal story...
I actually know a transgender girl right now who is in a decently similar situation. People talking to her are like "Wait, you're masculine in behavior, have a penis and like girls, how are you a woman?"
To which she replies: "Layers! Layers! LAYERS! I have depth and layers! Will you people please just pay attention! GRRRRRRRAAAAAAGH!!!!"
I'm sorry you've had a hard time making friends, I guess I feel I should inform you having read alot of what you have posted around here I think you are cool and am pretty sure I would like being buddies if I met you in real life. Sure, you're a spaz sometimes but I find that endearing and hilarious instead of annoying.
I hope your school career works outs. If nothing else the culinary training is a boon, there is no downside to knowing how to cook well.
Hehe ok I was going to write a long bit about what the primary misunderstanding I feel has been made about me both here and elsewhere on the interwebz is but I will keep it simple. What apparently is happening is the more sardonic seeming parts of my humor are being taken alternatively as vicious attacks or neurotic spasms of self hatred when really they are just 99% kind hearted funniness(although apparently I'm the only one who knows that to be true in this toneless environment), 1% seriousness. Oh well, what works in real life(where people can hear my tone and read my intent) does not work here, ok time to toss it up for something that works better. Will do!
Hehe, apparently I can't stay away from this thread even when doing stuff.I agree with most of what you are saying but I think the primary issue is actually fear more than hatred.
heh, true. I actually had changed my post from fear to hatred. 'guess I should have left it that way...
heh, true. I actually had changed my post from fear to hatred. 'guess I should have left it that way...
Hehe, apparently I can't stay away from this thread even when doing stuff.I agree with most of what you are saying but I think the primary issue is actually fear more than hatred.
Interwebz agreements on a subject! Awesome!!!! *high five*
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I have always known what the exact right thing to do is in any social situation, immediately after I have done the opposite.
It's all good. For me personally I usually have to try like 50 different approaches to a new social situation before I find a way that works both consistently and reliably and also delivers the messages I am trying to communicate correctly, you guys think some of the stuff I talk about sounds bad? Where do you think I learned this sh!t? Solely from observation of others? Ahahahahahaha, yeah right!
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I have always known what the exact right thing to do is in any social situation, immediately after I have done the opposite.
That's me, too. I have excellent social awareness, but only in hindsight.
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I have always known what the exact right thing to do is in any social situation, immediately after I have done the opposite.
I sometimes have the same realization months later. There's so much less unimportant, distracting information flying around like the presence of other people. History makes sense. The immediate present? Chaos.
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I sometimes have the same realization months later. There's so much less unimportant, distracting information flying around like the presence of other people. History makes sense. The immediate present? Chaos.
Good awareness isn't always sufficient. I'm pretty good at knowing what I should do in a social situation (of whatever sort). Indeed, I'm an excellent analyst of such and can give others good advice on such things. But all too often, when dealing with situations without clear rules, I freeze up and just can't make myself follow my own advice.
It's a special kind of frustrating knowing exactly what to say or do and not being able to make yourself say or do it.
I tend to avoid the difficulties of social interactions by avoiding that which necessitates them: other people. :\
Seriously, aside from the requisite hellos and thank yous required to get by, I just don't talk to people I don't know without an introduction from a friend...
I don't like to blame sexuality for character defects, but in this case... I think my years in the closet, indulging in hyperalert observation of everybody around me, translate into not giving a f*ck about interacting with people I don't already know.
I should probably be medicated for social anxiety, honestly. But that would take insurance. And talking to a mental health professional I don't already know...
I tend to avoid the difficulties of social interactions by avoiding that which necessitates them: other people. :\
Seriously, aside from the requisite hellos and thank yous required to get by, I just don't talk to people I don't know without an introduction from a friend...
That's my preferred strategy.
And then you wonder, Samnell, why you never get laid.
Not that I am one to talk. I don't really like talking to people I don't know either and that, consequently, is why I
I'm starting to detect a pattern: What about you, Alitan? Do you get laid very often?
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Because I've chosen not to, okay?!
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I am a big dork.
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I am a big dork.
I believe the term is adorkable...
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And then you wonder, Samnell, why you never get laid.
No, I know why I never get laid. I'm an expert soloist, though.
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We should start a Paizo Onanist Community Thread.
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We should start a Paizo Onanist Community Thread.
Wouldn't that qualify as a religion? ;-)
I broke the 16 y/o gamer of an old group of the "that's so gay" habit by chiming in with "you're absolutely right! That is so me!" every time.
You deserve a commendation for that! I find it so intellectually/linguistically lazy and "casual homophobic" that it really irks me to no end (and I'm not even gay).
I have always known what the exact right thing to do is in any social situation, immediately after I have done the opposite.I sometimes have the same realization months later. There's so much less unimportant, distracting information flying around like the presence of other people. History makes sense. The immediate present? Chaos.
Yep the most mindboggling part is when you realize that on some level there is always at least a bit of misunderstanding passing between you and your fellows, on both sides. I personally try to solve this problem by squirming around like a hamster in a maze until I find the path that seems to lead the direction I want to go but it is always a bit overwhelming. A less energetic furball would prolly make the more rational decision to just take a seat where he is and scratch his head as he tried to discern the right path, but, I dunno, maybe I like running around in circles, at least I'm never bored.
We should start a Paizo Onanist Community Thread.
You called?
BTW: to keep with modern nomenclature: Paizo Autosexual (or Selfsexual) Community Thread.
Good awareness isn't always sufficient. I'm pretty good at knowing what I should do in a social situation (of whatever sort). Indeed, I'm an excellent analyst of such and can give others good advice on such things. But all too often, when dealing with situations without clear rules, I freeze up and just can't make myself follow my own advice.
It's a special kind of frustrating knowing exactly what to say or do and not being able to make yourself say or do it.
That does suck. Still I should congradulate you, at least you have some idea where your @$$ is in relation to your head, that puts you 12, 13 steps ahead of me.
I tend to avoid the difficulties of social interactions by avoiding that which necessitates them: other people. :\
Seriously, aside from the requisite hellos and thank yous required to get by, I just don't talk to people I don't know without an introduction from a friend...
I don't like to blame sexuality for character defects, but in this case... I think my years in the closet, indulging in hyperalert observation of everybody around me, translate into not giving a f*ck about interacting with people I don't already know.
I should probably be medicated for social anxiety, honestly. But that would take insurance. And talking to a mental health professional I don't already know...
=(
"Don't knock masturbation, It's sex with someone I love!" -Woody Allen
Sex is always funny to me, in theory all it takes to have it is to find two people who want to have sex and put them in the same room together. We ask ourselves: Do I want to have sex? Yes? That's half the equation, now to see if we can find one other person on this planet of six billion that feels the same way. Seems simple enough but there tends to be a lot of complicating factors.
When I was nineteen I met and hung out extensively with a thirty eight year old man who was part of a group of older people I found pretty cool and after a long while of flirting and fun we ended up going to bed together. He was really, REALLY excited by the prospect and ended up having a reaction to the situation similar to the character Jim from American Pie ‘s reaction to his first sexual encounter.
He was kinda embarrassed but I was like “It’s all good, I take it as a compliment that you think I’m that hot.”
After slowing his breathing and letting the flush fade from his cheeks a bit he confessed that I was the only person he had ever been with.
I was honestly startled.
He was a confident, handsome man with a good job and many friends, I was a little bewildered that he had made it this far into his life without ever having an encounter of some sort.
“Our kiss earlier tonight was my first as well.” He told me.
“I see. Honestly if I had known this I might have approached you a bit different, tried to make this special instead of having an ‘I’m going to take you now.’ attitude.” I admitted.
“No this is…good.” He replied. He then proceeded to explain how this strange lifelong virginity had been kept. It is a long, interesting, and compelling story but it can basically all be summed up in two concepts: Bad luck and having that “clicking moment” that occurs between people just never occur.
Before this incident I was always pretty harsh(mostly jokingly but not completely) on people that were virgins for a long time(or even just people who experienced long dry spells) but what I received here was true information that “Getting Lucky” was more than just a turn of phrase. While certain ways of living your life lead to more or less intimate encounters and relationships, in the end it seems things are as much about getting fortunate enough that someone actually notices you and appreciates you as it is about anything you yourself are doing or who you are.
We ended up spending a lot of quality time together and though we never truly had a “relationship” from the spending our lives together point of view he is still a friend today and we talk regularly. (He is actually in a relationship now with a really nice guy that makes him far happier than I ever could so I am happy)
It is my fondest wish that we all be blessed with Luck in our lives. Too many of us are terribly under-appreciated and deserve far more out of life than we are currently getting.
Dogblade, can I ask how old you are? (If you've said so earlier in the thread I missed it, I'm that guy who's trying not to intrude with white hetero-sexism)
Never mind Triton, you should read The Motion of Light on Water by the same author (Samuel R. Delany).
I only asked about your age because your last post sounded like a very closeted life experience. (Him, not you.) Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I assumed the issue was settled.
Edit: I suppose growing up on the DL is an individual experience.
Dogblade, can I ask how old you are? (If you've said so earlier in the thread I missed it, I'm that guy who's trying not to intrude with white hetero-sexism)
Never mind Triton, you should read The Motion of Light on Water by the same author (Samuel R. Delany).
I only asked about your age because your last post sounded like a very closeted life experience. (Him, not you.) Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I assumed the issue was settled.
Edit: I suppose growing up on the DL is an individual experience.
Hehe, I am 21 and this was less than two years ago. I know my friends experience sounds weird but he had literally been completely out of the closet for ten years before he met me. He wasn't doing anything wrong as far as I can tell things just...didn't work out for him for a long time. If he ever made a "mistake" it may have been just that he is a perfect gentlemen in everyday life and so polite that the idea of approaching him romantically or sexually just seems too ridiculous to the men he meets(except to a hellion like me apparently).
By the way there is no reason not to just post what you like, my rants are behind me and I don't bite or exclude people if I can help it. I encourage you and anyone else who has questions or comments to post here.
By the way there is no reason not to just post what you like, my rants are behind me and I don't bite or exclude people if I can help it. I encourage you and anyone else who has questions or comments to post here.
I'm not self-censoring, it's just that white hetero-dudes such as myself have a bit of a problem with talking more than listening, y'know?
By the way there is no reason not to just post what you like, my rants are behind me and I don't bite or exclude people if I can help it. I encourage you and anyone else who has questions or comments to post here.I'm not self-censoring, it's just that white hetero-dudes such as myself have a bit of a problem with talking more than listening, y'know?
Hehe ok, then I respect you for your efforts.
Oh, thank you for the book recommendations by the way, I haven't gotten around to looking them up yet but I'm putting them on my to read list.
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I'll echo others thanks for starting this thread, Dogbladewarrior.
GLBT threads pop up on the boards here semi-regularly, the first I recall was when Rise of the Runelords: Burnt Offerings contained mention of same-gender attraction in Sandpoint, and then again in Curse of the Crimson Throne. I have contributed my thoughts to many GLBT threads in the past (how did this thread escape my notice for the last month?)
As a 5-Star Venture-Captain, I've run a lot of games. Occasionally at the table, a player will respond to a bad ruling, critical miss, or whatever with "oh, that's so gay!" I make no hesitation in stopping that player in their tracks, requesting they not use terms that could be considered offensive by others at the table. Hey, I've even reprimanded my own friends who know I'm gay and should clearly have known better!
I realise the term is in common use today, but that doesn't excuse it. Anyone who has read even part of this thread should realise there are any number of people who are not out to their gaming groups for whatever reason, and offensive terms like this only help to reinforce the reasons they might not want their orientation known among other gamers, or the community in general.
This also goes for sexist or racist language, or terms like "retard". Just because those at your table "appear" to be str8 white males, doesn't mean they necessarily are. Furthermore, it may not be known that their partner is Jamaican, or their brother has Downs Syndrome, or they find said comments offensive simply because they are.
I'm probably preaching to the converted here - obviously we feel for this because we've lived through it, and it's easier to speak out against an issue if you're confident or out. However, it's my hope that everyone, whether male/female, str8/gay, black/white, shared the responsibility to speak out against inappropriate language to ensure our tables remain a safe and welcoming place for everyone to game.
Community opinion can vary from region-to-region, but certainly attitudes are much more accepting today than they were in the 70s or 80s when I was growing up. This has been reflected in the TV programs we watch, to the games we buy. I'd never seen any acknowledgement of same-gender attraction in any RPG product I'd purchased in 30 years (with the notable excpection of WhiteWolf's World of Darkness) until Pathfinder. Way to go Paizo! For the first time in 30 years, I feel included, not ignored, in the social hobby I devote so much of my time toward.
good stuff.
No problem, just seemed like the thing to do.
Yes I can see how eliminating pejorative phrases is particularly important in Pathfinder Society games, thank you for doing your part that is really important.
I have nothing but good things to say about Paizo and it's employees; they are extremely professional while also interacting with their fan base in a way that is both compelling and relatable. Their Pathfinder products have a depth that is surprising and are also some of the most fun of any of the d20 material I've encountered, both from a player option standpoint and also in the entertainingness of their adventure paths.
And then you wonder, Samnell, why you never get laid.
Not that I am one to talk. I don't really like talking to people I don't know either and that, consequently, is why I ** spoiler omitted **
I'm starting to detect a pattern: What about you, Alitan? Do you get laid very often?
Right now?
Generally?
Recently?
But no, not as much as I'd LIKE. Though the last two, two-and-a-half years have seen something of a spike (no pun intended... ok, maybe a little) in my sex life.
I blame my most current ex; he convinced me that I'm good in bed. Leading to a certain ineffable confidence, which seems self-fulfilling in the 'getting Alitan laid' department.
Apparently, chicks aren't the only ones who dig confidence.
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Apparently, chicks aren't the only ones who dig confidence.
I've heard giant robots can also be involved. Admittedly that comes up less often in most social situations.