So I'm doing the burnt offerings: Rise of the Runelords. They are at the first "Boss" Goblin commando.
I made them all start at level 2 since I hate level 1.
The CR for this encounter is supposed to be 3 and 1/3. With 4 players at level 1 I can see how that would be good. But I have 5 characters at level 2.
I'm going to make the Goblin commando a CR 2 (level 2 ranger) his dog a level 2 dog (CR4) and then possibly add some level 2 warrior goblins. (cr 2 each) with a few of the standard level 1 CR 1/3 Goblins.
So what CR am I aiming for? 5 level 2 PCs would be CR 10 (if they were monsters of normal races)
Do I want to aim for like CR 8? CR 7? What would make it fun yet still challenging for their first boss fight?
I think you misunderstand how CR works.
A group of 5 adventurers at level 2 you would have at least a CR2 group. (It might end up being a CR3, depending on how they were built and how much gear they have).
At a planned 1st level group, the encounter is tough, but doable.
So your encounter should only be a bit more tough, but not to the limit you push. Add another Goblin Commando with Goblin dog, and this encounter should fall back into line.
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Uh...5 level 2 PCs are maybe a weak CR 7, not CR 10 (and that only if properly equipped). A CR 5 or 6 threat is really as high as you should go, unless you want a 50/50 shot at a TPK.
A level 2 Ranger is CR 1, his dog shouldn't probably get levels, but if it does, 2 levels make it CR 3, and Level 2 Goblin Warriors are CR 1/2 each.
So, for a CR 6, you could have the Ranger, enhanced dog, and 6 Goblin Warriors 2 (or 9 standard Goblins).
For CR 5, you could drop the dog to normal and scrap two warriors, leaving the Ranger, Dog, and 4 Warriors 2 (or 6 standard Goblins).
I'd probably go with the second, and have a few reinforcements show up if it's too easy. It's always easier to adjust the difficulty up on the fly than it is down.
Uh...5 level 2 PCs are maybe a weak CR 7, not CR 10 (and that only if properly equipped). A CR 5 or 6 threat is really as high as you should go, unless you want a 50/50 shot at a TPK.
A level 2 Ranger is CR 1, his dog shouldn't probably get levels, but if it does, 2 levels make it CR 3, and Level 2 Goblin Warriors are CR 1/2 each.
So, for a CR 6, you could have the Ranger, enhanced dog, and 6 Goblin Warriors 2 (or 9 standard Goblins).
For CR 5, you could drop the dog to normal and scrap two warriors, leaving the Ranger, Dog, and 4 Warriors 2 (or 6 standard Goblins).
I'd probably go with the second, and have a few reinforcements show up if it's too easy. It's always easier to adjust the difficulty up on the fly than it is down.
I guess I'm just confused how to level them. I thought I read somewhere that each level in a class raises the CR by 1. For instance in the book it says the gobling ranger level 1 is CR 1. So wouldn't making him level 2 raise the CR?
Also isn't average party level based on an assumed 4 PC party? So by having 5 shouldn't that raise the CR by some amount?
As far as your advice thanks for the tip on building the encounter! I'm fairly new to DMing and while my improv skills and rules are well developed, (I'm know as the rules lawyer in the games I don't DM) my DM skill definately need work. Especially in the encounter building department!
For instance, I'm curious how a level 1 goblin (CR 1/3) raised by 1 level makes them CR 1/2. I just don't know where that increase comes from?
What.
I mean. What.
That is a hilariously dangerous miscalculation of challenge ratings. First of all, the Average Group Level, that appropriates the group's might is exactly that: averaged. So your group would have an APL of 2.
Now, you might want to brush up on how to build an encounter, you can do that conveniently here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering#TOC-Step-3-Build-the-EncounterBut in general an encounter is par for the course if CR=APL, challenging if it's CR=APL+1, hard if CR=APL+2 and downright epic if CR=APL+3. Anything more and your are venturing deep into TPK country. For your situation you are probably looking at a "hard" CR of 4 maximum. Although if your players are new or the class composition is somewhat odd you might want to scale this down to CR 3
At this point in the adventure, the goblins are still partly comedic relief intented to be little packages of mindless mayhem, just as dangerous to themselves as they are to their surroundings. You could add a squad of pyromaniac goblins carrying flasks of alchemist's fire and have them "accidentally" suicide bomb the PCs as they attempt to throw them. Stuff like that.
[edit]ah, ninja'd.[/edit]
Thanks for the tips! My party is a heroic 25 point buy and while there is no healer, the group is well aware of their classes abilities (save 1 person who it's there first time. But they are a monk so mostly just flurries and punches and flanking at this point)
The reason I wanted to raise CR, is the last 2 encounters went off with minimal damage. Most of the party (save the summoner) has decent AC (18-20) at this level goblins with just +1 to hit just can't handle that and get slaughtered effortlessly.
With level 2 goblins (and giving them +1 str) they have bab +2 and +2 to hit for STR and do 1d4 +2. Much more dangerous and still pretty easy to kill (at 12 hp)
Any Advice on this is appreciated!
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I guess I'm just confused how to level them. I thought I read somewhere that each level in a class raises the CR by 1. For instance in the book it says the gobling ranger level 1 is CR 1. So wouldn't making him level 2 raise the CR?
Characters in Pathfinder are of a CR equal to their level -1. So a Ranger 1 would be CR 1/2.
However, Rise of the Rune Lords is in D&D 3.5, not Pathfinder, and some things are done differently...like calculating NPC CRs.
You should probably check the SRD for conversions of various things to Pathfinder if you wish to save some work converting things.
Also isn't average party level based on an assumed 4 PC party? So by having 5 shouldn't that raise the CR by some amount?
It is. But 5 isn't considered a big enough change to matter that much. If you had 6 or more they actualy have reccomendations for accomadating the party.
As far as your advice thanks for the tip on building the encounter! I'm fairly new to DMing and while my improv skills and rules are well developed, (I'm know as the rules lawyer in the games I don't DM) my DM skill definately need work. Especially in the encounter building department!
I know the feeling, I've actually just been going through a similar process (I've GMed Pathfinder previously, but only in an AP, so making encounters from scratch is still a bit new).
For instance, I'm curious how a level 1 goblin (CR 1/3) raised by 1 level makes them CR 1/2. I just don't know where that increase comes from?
The jumps from 1/3 to 1/2 or 1/2 to 1 are considered the equivalent of +1 or -1 CR for such calculations.
I guess I'm just confused how to level them. I thought I read somewhere that each level in a class raises the CR by 1. For instance in the book it says the gobling ranger level 1 is CR 1. So wouldn't making him level 2 raise the CR?Characters in Pathfinder are of a CR equal to their level -1. So a Ranger 1 would be CR 1/2.
However, Rise of the Rune Lords is in D&D 3.5, not Pathfinder, and some things are done differently...like calculating NPC CRs.
You should probably check the SRD for conversions of various things to Pathfinder if you wish to save some work converting things.
Also isn't average party level based on an assumed 4 PC party? So by having 5 shouldn't that raise the CR by some amount?It is. But 5 isn't considered a big enough change to matter that much. If you had 6 or more they actualy have reccomendations for accomadating the party.
As far as your advice thanks for the tip on building the encounter! I'm fairly new to DMing and while my improv skills and rules are well developed, (I'm know as the rules lawyer in the games I don't DM) my DM skill definately need work. Especially in the encounter building department!I know the feeling, I've actually just been going through a similar process (I've GMed Pathfinder previously, but only in an AP, so making encounters from scratch is still a bit new).
For instance, I'm curious how a level 1 goblin (CR 1/3) raised by 1 level makes them CR 1/2. I just don't know where that increase comes from?The jumps from 1/3 to 1/2 or 1/2 to 1 are considered the equivalent of +1 or -1 CR for such calculations.
Ah I see, so that table that the other poster put up there, but with enemies. So CR 1/8, give it +1 level goes to cr 1/6, +1 Level to 1/4, to 1/3, to 1/2, to 1, to 2, to 3... Etc. Am I understanding that right?
So a level 2 ranger is CR 1, a level 3 ranger is CR 2, level 4 is CR 3... Etc. Right?
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Ah I see, so that table that the other poster put up there, but with enemies. So CR 1/8, give it +1 level goes to cr 1/6, +1 Level to 1/4, to 1/3, to 1/2, to 1, to 2, to 3... Etc. Am I understanding that right?
So a level 2 ranger is CR 1, a level 3 ranger is CR 2, level 4 is CR 3... Etc. Right?
Yes, that's all correct.
Yes, that's all correct.Ah I see, so that table that the other poster put up there, but with enemies. So CR 1/8, give it +1 level goes to cr 1/6, +1 Level to 1/4, to 1/3, to 1/2, to 1, to 2, to 3... Etc. Am I understanding that right?
So a level 2 ranger is CR 1, a level 3 ranger is CR 2, level 4 is CR 3... Etc. Right?
Awesome! Thanks for the tips Deadmanwalking! This will GREATLY help me in the future!