We've all seen it in WoW and similar games: Players and NPC's don't truly take up space, so you can actually run through them. Not only does this look half assed and ugly, it can also screw with the tactics of large battles (which we know we'll see in PFO). Are players going to be able to walk through each other when the game comes out?
I hope they don't.
Players form ring around quest giver, no more quest giver \o/
Griefers will grief.
Goblin Squad Member
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This is another one of the problem's I think can be solved by a Challenge mechanic.
I just "ran" into this problem yesterday in a game where no running through is possible. A guy chose to stand in a doorway in a building nad there were no way to get past him, so I had to go a long way around him. But otherwise I'm all for collision. We are not ghosts! :D
I just "ran" into this problem yesterday in a game where no running through is possible. A guy chose to stand in a doorway in a building nad there were no way to get past him, so I had to go a long way around him. But otherwise I'm all for collision. We are not ghosts! :D
If we were ghosts, maybe that would get around the illogical death/dying/raised issue MMOs deal with.
What if there was a system in place that allowed for collision generally, with the exception of areas where there were doors, quest givers, etc. Basically, the best of both worlds. Combat wouldn't get screwed over, but around a door or a quest giver, you could still get through.
Of course, I'm sure there are issues with this, but you can't be perfect...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think Collision is fine, but it ought to be really easy to shove inactive players out of the way. Basically, a griefer would have to be applying force (trying to move forward) against you to keep you from pushing him out of the way (by trying to move forward against him). You'd just need a minor bit of tweaking to the physics to let you actually push right through them if there was no room for them to be pushed out of the way.
If there was a clipping animation (you physically run through someone, but that person's avatar moves as if they had been hit) that didn't actually "move" the other character, that might work. That way you can't have people running into people to push them off of cliffs or ledges, but it still provides a visual que that shows the two people have "interacted" physically.
Also prevents being cut off from an area because of circling of an NPC or doorway.
I thought of that, actually, but there are some nice advantages to being able to push people off of cliffs. One thing I can't stand in combat is fighting at the edge of a cliff, and the cliff just being totally impassable. Thus my idea, stated above. The clipping animation idea for those areas where passing through is okay is a neat idea, though. I hadn't thought of that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If there was a clipping animation (you physically run through someone, but that person's avatar moves as if they had been hit) that didn't actually "move" the other character, that might work. That way you can't have people running into people to push them off of cliffs or ledges, but it still provides a visual que that shows the two people have "interacted" physically.
Also prevents being cut off from an area because of circling of an NPC or doorway.
Personally I like the idea of in combat being able to push someone off a cliff, that adds tactical depth, and risk/reward to fighting near the edge of a cliff, merit for a bull rush attack etc...
Now the fear of griefing mainly comes to people AFK standing in the street corner getting slowly pushed to the middle of a forest, to which I have to say 2 things
1. Why is afk standing around so largely regarded as a sacred thing to protect in MMO's, why can't we say that you need to either go to an inn, or one of your personal buildings or whatever or just log out with a timer going before your character logs out. Have we grown to view 50 people mindlessly stairing into space in the middle of a busy road as a good thing? A necessary sacred right? It would take like 2 seconds to hit escape and click log out to start up the timer to have your character disapear in a minute or so, I can't think of many RL emergencies that are significant enough that you can't take 2 seconds, and the ones that are, are situations in which you don't really give a darn what happens to your character at that point.
If you have to go into combat to push a griefer out of a doorway in an NPC Settlement, then the griefer wins, because you'll be flagged a murderer and be killed by the marshals.
You wouldn't be in combat in the doorway so there would be no collision under what random said. I agree with him that it's the best compromise.
No collision out of combat, full collision in combat. Prevents all the door-blocking and such when it's annoying and allows it when the door is suddenly a useful choke point.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you have to go into combat to push a griefer out of a doorway in an NPC Settlement, then the griefer wins, because you'll be flagged a murderer and be killed by the marshals.You wouldn't be in combat in the doorway so there would be no collision under what random said. I agree with him that it's the best compromise.
No collision out of combat, full collision in combat. Prevents all the door-blocking and such when it's annoying and allows it when the door is suddenly a useful choke point.
Heh, sorry. I totally misunderstood randomwalker.
Yeah, that's actually a really good idea.
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Goblin Squad Member
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would this work:
-no collision out of combat,
-collision in combat (certainly collision between hostile entities, preferably also among allies engaged in combat). You can hold the line in pvp, but can't prevent others from passing you unless willing to back that up with force.
+1
That's the best of both worlds. Basicaly going into combat mode exerts your zone of control which prevents other people from walking through you. Going into combat mode in a city without provocation (i.e. being attacked) or the city being under attacked could be considered by the guards as a criminal act.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would think you'd want the collision limited to characters that are "in combat" with each other.
How do you define "with eachother". How do you differentiate 4 groups where A and B, are fighting, C and D are fighting, how can the game differentiate whether A and C are on the same side or just coincidentaly fighting on the same hex.
Personally IMO while it isn't my preffered situation, I see merit in say just disable collision and pushing within town walls (course that still raises problems in player towns, durring assaults, raids, attacks etc...).
IMO pushing also, assuming the idea of letting people stand around AFK in town is that important to protect, you could permit pushing always, but say have an anchor point centered on where the person started, IE if you push someone more then 25' away from where he formerly stood, he then is shown to flinch and roll sideways, limiting to a 25' radius of distance in which he could be moved, This keeps collision, but eliminates blocking of NPCs etc...
Myself I still see the idea of only being able to afk in taverns or other safe locations as fully plausible, or one could simply pose an arbitrary people cannot be pushed into or out of town doorways. (In theory nothing can kill you in town, so there is little to no room for abuse there, outside of town, if you afk you still have high probability of getting killed regardless of pushing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would think you'd want the collision limited to characters that are "in combat" with each other.How do you define "with eachother". How do you differentiate 4 groups where A and B, are fighting, C and D are fighting, how can the game differentiate whether A and C are on the same side or just coincidentaly fighting on the same hex.
C isn't "in combat" with B until anyone in C directly assists anyone in A, or directly attacks anyone in B. As soon as that happens, then C is in combat with B.
... permit pushing always, but say have an anchor point centered on where the person started...
This is my preferred solution. When A gets pushed by B, A should try to slide around B and get back to A's origin point, regardless of how far out they are. This might look silly when a large group of B's friends try to corral A out of town, but I think watching A quickly slip around the outside of the entire group and end up back where he started is a perfectly acceptable trade-off.
Imagine it as A & B are both North magnets, and A's origin point is a strong, extremely long range South magnet.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Collision should exist everywhere but in settlements where such griefers would be likely to interupt game play. Collision would be activated to those who are in a combat state. Collision would be turned on for every one if the settlement was in combat state. The only trick then is what will trigger the settlements combat state. Being that there is NPC marshalls and murder laws, I think this would be a safe bet that it wouldn't be arbitrarily triggered.
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As stated in one of the other threads, the dev team is planning on launching PFO without structures having internal graphics. Player characters are going to appear from and disappear into buildings, so worrying about access into and out of (well... at least out of) a building should be a moot point for right now.
Outside of the buildings, if there is collision mechanics, I can see that being more benefitial than harmful (so long as the physics are in line with other mechanical principles of the game).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have to agree with Pheoran here...also, the above compromise, concerning collision in combat - not outside, limits defensive tactics. What is to keep an enemy from just walking through our defensive line to begin combat on our squishies? I realize tanks and other trinity types are to be avoided, but there will be those who design their characters as melee types and those who don't, I would like to be able to utilize meaningful tactics to employ both.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In my opinion Mortal Online has the right idea here. You can't move through other players but you can push them. However you can only push them so many times. This allows you to move players out of the way however it prevents you from pushing afks out to mob spawns, off cliffs, or just running around pushing people over and over and over.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Perhaps a halfway meeting? Trying to push past somebody pushes you both off. IE, player A is standing in the doorway that Player B needs to get through. Player B 'pushes' past, pushing Player A out of the doorway and Player B gets pushed into the building, but off to the side of the door.
Alternatively, perhaps running through somebody slows you down and cancels your actions. Drop movement speed to 50% and cancels your spellcasting/ability.