The Green Faith and the Law of Man

[Gideon Black]

Rahadoum has strict laws against the divine. Making clerics, oracles and paladins illegal. But what about druids? They use divine magic but if they worship the Green Faith...then are they braking the law of man?

[Deadmanwalking]

Yes. They are still subordinating humanity to something else (in this case the divinity of nature), and thus against the Law. So's a Ranger capable of spellcasting, actually.

[Gideon Black]

I suppose...but couldn't the same be said about some wizards.

[Set]

It's funniest with Rangers.

"Yeah, Bob, I know you're an atheist, and have worked with you on the heretic-burning Inquisition for three years now, and I know you have 'favored enemy: Theist scumbags', but now that you've hit 4th level, and can cast divine spells, I have to burn you at the stake..."

[Deadmanwalking]

Set wrote:

It's funniest with Rangers.

"Yeah, Bob, I know you're an atheist, and have worked with you on the heretic-burning Inquisition for three years now, and I know you have 'favored enemy: Theist scumbags', but now that you've hit 4th level, and can cast divine spells, I have to burn you at the stake..."

Eh, there are several spell-less Ranger variants, which anyone with the attitude mentioned is pretty sure to take one of. Skirmisher (one such) even says: "Many rangers rely on spells, but there are some who eschew aid from divine powers for their own reasons. Skirmishers rely on their wits, their wisdom, and sometimes even instinct to aid in their quests."

So, it's not like they lack a choice in the matter.

[Gideon Black]

So back to the Green Faith, it is listed as a philosophy? Doesn't that change it because people are a part of nature?

[HappyDaze]

Gideon Black wrote:

So back to the Green Faith, it is listed as a philosophy? Doesn't that change it because people are a part of nature?

This sounds familiar. I wish you luck in trying to discuss anything involving Rahadoum objectively. James has pretty much said that they are bad guys in his eyes, and he's pretty determined to present them that way every chance he gets.

They are anti-religion (including philosophies, other than their own), and anti-divine magic (even when it doesn't come from a deity). They might even be anti-outsider since some of those might draw worship and it's better to be safe and just wipe them all out. Come to think of it, since humans can and have become gods through the Test of the Starstone, maybe they should wipe them out too (starting with Taldans and Chelaxians, obviously).

[Snorter]

If modern-day Christians can continue insisting that Atheism is a religion, or Science is a religion, then I'm quite sure a Rahadoumian Inquisitor isn't going to be splitting hairs over whether a druid is a Theist or an Atavist.

[Tobias]

HappyDaze wrote:

Come to think of it, since humans can and have become gods through the Test of the Starstone, maybe they should wipe them out too (starting with Taldans and Chelaxians, obviously).

Or they could, you know, just go and destroy the Starstone, since that's what grants godhood. In fact, you could probably make an entire adventure path incorporating Distant Worlds about Rahadoum trying to get another shard like the Starstone from the Diaspora in order to harness it to "kill" the Gods.

Unless James is saying that every man, woman and child is a vicious, divinity-hating, baby-eating monster then Rahadoum isn't that much different than the other "Bad" nations. Chelax, Galt, Geb and Razmeran are all similar examples where the nation is "bad" as a whole but the people themselves are not necessarily evil.

Rahadoum's anti-religious philosophy exists in a world where demonstrably good gods exist and can help people. It isn't that they refuse to accept the gods that is evil, but the extremes they go to in order to keep religion out of their nation. Innocents who might take otherwise be saved suffer and die because of the nation's approach to keeping out the divine. People who do follow a god are punished for it, and divine casters are killed, even if they did not choose to be a divine caster.

So I don't blame James for portraying the nation as evil. It is; just like Chelax is evil for worshiping Asmodeus. But the philosophy itself is not truly evil, just how the nation chooses to enforce it.

[Tobias]

Gideon Black wrote:

I suppose...but couldn't the same be said about some wizards.

Wizards don't get their power from the Gods though. They get it through their own skill, ability and hard work. They don't claim that arcane magic is something that people should worship or that it is better than them. If anything, wizards show that arcane magic is subservient to man.

[Deadmanwalking]

Tobias wrote:

So I don't blame James for portraying the nation as evil. It is; just like Chelax is evil for worshiping Asmodeus. But the philosophy itself is not truly evil, just how the nation chooses to enforce it.

Galt's a better example. While technically CN, it's usually portrayed really badly, and yet unlike Rahadoum, people don't seem almost personally upset with that.

[BigNorseWolf]

Gideon Black wrote:

Rahadoum has strict laws against the divine. Making clerics, oracles and paladins illegal. But what about druids? They use divine magic but if they worship the Green Faith...then are they braking the law of man?

Probably depends on how good your lawyer is and or how badly someone needs that druids remove disease.

[Tobias]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Tobias wrote:

So I don't blame James for portraying the nation as evil. It is; just like Chelax is evil for worshiping Asmodeus. But the philosophy itself is not truly evil, just how the nation chooses to enforce it.

Galt's a better example. While technically CN, it's usually portrayed really badly, and yet unlike Rahadoum, people don't seem almost personally upset with that.

That's the great thing about Galt. Everyone is happy with the results of the revolution and work really hard to make sure that they get rid of traitors. They even have the Grey Gardeners to make sure that everyone is happy with the way things are and understand what happens if people aren't "happy."

[Tobias]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Gideon Black wrote:

Rahadoum has strict laws against the divine. Making clerics, oracles and paladins illegal. But what about druids? They use divine magic but if they worship the Green Faith...then are they braking the law of man?

Probably depends on how good your lawyer is and or how badly someone needs that druids remove disease.

Regardless of need, I think it comes down to worship. Unless you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are getting your divine magic from a relationship between equals based on mutual respect you are probably up the creek without a paddle.

And even if you could prove that...