I started out in 2nd.ed AD&D after having first tried out the game on borrowed original D&D books, and decided we liked it.
I read through the AD&D book, but never really got into optimizing back then. I only did what the DM told me I could do basically
Towards the end of AD&D's lifetime though I was heavvily into min/maxing, and when 3rd ed. came out I went nuts. 3.0 was the best time I've ever had as a pen and paper tabletop rpg gamer. I like to be powerful I admit it.
We had the Epic Level Handbook, we had everything, we weren't just gods, we were better than gods. Travelling through time and planes killing gods and demon lords left and right. To me this is what I strive for. Every time I make a new character I want it to one day become the most powerful being that ever lived. Or at the very least I want for it to exist in a world where something like that is possible.
I don't want reality. I don't want to play in a world where man is man, and god is god. I want fantasy. I get enough realism in the the real world.
I don't have the book in front of me right now (I've archived it in my regular GM's rpg library I believe), but I think it said something along the lines of 9th level spells being supremely powerful reality altering magic in the beginning of the magic chapter of the AD&D players handbook. That always stuck with me...
In 3.0 it got to be a bit over the top even for me, I had literally dozens of spells(around 50) cast on me, that lasted days, weeks months, years, decades, even centuries. My conjuror was more powerful at meele with his greatsword than any fighter or barbarian. Better with his bow than any archer/ranger and still could cast two high level wizard spell each round. At this point my AC was around 75 fully buffed up with polymorph and everything. That's when my DM told me to stop, and I did.
That's an important lesson, when the GM tells you to do something......ACCEPT IT! That's how we managed to keep playing that campaign until the end of 3.0's lifespan. I did as I was told. The DM didn't have to nerf me or any of my abilities, I just stuck to spellcasting during combat, or fought with my bow with a minimum of buffs and all was good. I still like this edition of the rules best because I dont think the classes should be balanced. I think the magical and supernatural is inherently the most powerful force and should rule supreme. I also like to play non spellcasters so this opinion is not just a selfish one, but more of a way I want things to be in my ideal campaign world.
When 3.5 came I was a bit annoyed. It fixed the things we had already fixed by just listening to the DM, and ACCEPTING! But it was ok, it was going great, we still played the same game, I still played my most powerful characters imported from AD&D into epic levels just converted into 3.5, and other 3.0 characters converted to straight 3.5.
When 4.0 came out we didn't even wanna try it, it sounded horrendous. Thankfully Paizo saved the day with Pathfinder, and we were able to continue many old campaigns converted, and start many new ones.(Please don't make Pathifinder 2, it will force many of us to rethink if we want to stick at this hobby, and we can't afford to loose any players).
I guess my main point is that the only time I was ever truly able to break the game was under 3.0 rules, and even then imo the game didn't need fixing. The only thing needed was listening to the word of the allmighty DM and ACCEPTING!
Nothing in the pathfinder rules can be exploited to such an extent that the game itself is broken, not even in high levels. High levels is what this game needs. the entire game is too low power these days as far as I'm concerned. We need stats for gods, and we need the epic level rules to smite them into the dirt, that's hight adventure as far as I'm concerned.
PS. It may be noted that these days I don't optimize at all, I just play whatever character I want to based on the roleplaying aspect of the game. I long for a new dawn for level 20+ and god hunting though.
Lvl 20 isn't a level cap. You CAN keep leveling. But classes don't get supported after that. (So you start multiclassing!)
It probably just means lots more work on the DM's part to make it work.
Lvl 20 isn't a level cap. You CAN keep leveling. But classes don't get supported after that. (So you start multiclassing!)
It probably just means lots more work on the DM's part to make it work.
This I know, but without the rules to support it there is not a GM I know that is going to bother with all that work.
What we really need is epic level rules, stats for gods, and an AP that starts at level 20.
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What we really need is epic level rules, stats for gods, and an AP that starts at level 20.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you wholeheartedly. We don't NEED those things, and if you ask me, those kinds of things would do more harm than good. Why, you ask?
Most people don't know how to use high-level content correctly. Most DMs don't know how to deal with players who have almost everything in the game at their disposal, and most players have misconceptions or just misunderstand what it means to be a high-level character.
Stats for gods? In my opinion, such a thing is a terrible concept. Sure, it's nice to look at them and say, "Ooh, that's really cool", but such a thing should in no way be the norm, and such a thing shouldn't be player knowledge. If a deity's stats are going to come into play, it should be something specific to the campaign, made up by the DM of the campaign in question. The moment a deity's stats are printed, people all over the world start statting up characters specifically designed to kill that specific deity, and then the entire mystery or intrigue of that deity is gone.
I'm not saying there aren't campaigns where it can work, but in the campaigns where it can work, you're better off making something specifically tailored to that campaign. So far, Paizo hasn't come out with anything epic, and I applaud them for that. I'm sure some day they'll give in to the pressure and the dollar signs that will come from it, but in no way do we NEED epic level rules or stats for deities. If you want them, make them up yourself.
Nope. No stats for gods.
If a god wants something to happen, it does, barring the interference of another god.
OK, one stat. The one that says "god."
Which trumps all the high-level PCs ever made.
No, you don't get to kill a god. You don't even get a chance to fight one. You're up against a god: you lose. If you push it, you're not just geas/quested, you're dead, make a new character.
They're GODS.
Nope. No stats for gods.
If a god wants something to happen, it does, barring the interference of another god.
OK, one stat. The one that says "god."
Which trumps all the high-level PCs ever made.
No, you don't get to kill a god. You don't even get a chance to fight one. You're up against a god: you lose. If you push it, you're not just geas/quested, you're dead, make a new character.
They're GODS.
Agreed. In my opinion, having a book full of the stats of gods would make them no longer gods- they'd just be really high-level NPCs. I remember reading one of the makers of the Forgotten Realms saying that they hated how they had released stats for the deities, because nobody should be able to represent a deity's stats. They said that when the weakest deity has stats that show them as a 40th-level NPC, that's assuming that the most powerful PC in the entire universe is only level 20- and that if a PC is ever able to break that limit, and make a 40th-level PC, surprise! That means the weakest deity is actually an 80th-level NPC, and all the others should increase accordingly.
At least I got my rant off my chest, even though nobody agrees with me.
I sympathize with your desire to play an epic level god-killer. Well, really I just love playing anything beyond the 1-5 level range which is so rare to advance beyond.
...But I disagree with just about everything else you say. While "Just do what the DM says" is an acceptable last resort to solving balance problems, actually fixing those problems is far preferable -- via house rules, or by playing 4e.
I don't know what you heard was so horrendous about it but if you ever get the chance with a 4e DM, give it a try. It does epic levels better than anything else I've played! And I've run epic games in 3.x and 4e.
I am fine with the gods having stats. I like the Divine Rank score. The divine rank is the spark of god hood that makes the gods wicked powerful not their stats. I used the stats as if they represented the gods Prime Avatar. Not the actual god. If you wanted to slay a god you went after their Avatars.