I used to play with a guy who always made charisma his highest stat. Didn't matter if he was playing a fighter, had to have the charisma. He just wanted to get all the characters around him to suck up to him without providing anything of value or even a logical reason, RP-wise.
I got him to make a sorcerer, once, but he killed off half the party with area of effect spells while trying to kill some random dudes... who were actually just messengers... and were also rogues with Improved Evasion. BUT I HAVE A HIGH CHARISMA SO EVERYBODY LIKES ME. ALSO IT TRANSLATES DIRECTLY TO INCHES.
Anyway, depending on the stats for really basic social scenarios seems like asking somebody with an 8 STR to make a roll to open his front door. All it says is "I'm punishing you for making a choice I don't like." Hopefully, a decent fighter will be able to get a decent reaction because he has a reputation from his heroic deeds... or fear from his evil deeds... rather than turning everything into American Idol: The RPG.
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The problem is no the charisma. The problems is the player.
The problem is no the charisma. The problems is the player.
^^that^^
What wraithstrike says. I've played a sorcerer that's really shy. He's Charisma translated into being a wallflower and keeping people from noticing him, or caring if they did.
The way I figure it Charisma is about presence and force of personality. That doesn't necessarily mean a high Charisma character is good looking or even likable. The modifiers it gives are for Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate - Diplomacy is a bit about being likable but its also a lot about coming across as authoritative and reasonable - someone you can work out a deal with. Bluff is about coming across as believable - not necessarily likable. And of course Intimidate is about just being scary.
Also, these skills are not meant to be used against other PCs. In the games I run I would generally not allow some other PC or NPC's rolls to override a PC's free will. If someone gets a high Bluff for instance and the PC fails their sense motive I will just tell them that as far as they can tell the other person is sincere and telling the truth. If its a high Diplomacy roll I'll say that what the other PC or NPC proposes sound sincere and reasonable. If it's intimidate well they'll just get the negative modifiers for being intimidated but otherwise can choose how to react.
The way I figure it Charisma is about presence and force of personality. That doesn't necessarily mean a high Charisma character is good looking or even likable.
ISTR that, in the 1E AD&D DMG, Gygax himself used Adolph Hitler as an example of this.
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I encourage players to take high charisma for all sorts of reasons. It's not a get out of jail free card though - regardless of how likeable someone is they will generally be judged on their actions. Take President Clinton and President Bush. Both of these men would have extremely high charisma, however both of them are widely and globally hated. Your fighter with the high charisma, well, unless he's maxed out diplomacy he's still only adding three or four to a reaction roll check - not enough to stop him being arrested.
I don't think it's fair to make people role play charisma skills, some people want to play the wiley trickster or the smooth talking priest, but can't in real life string a sentence together. They shouldn't be prevented from playing their archetype any more than I should be prevented from playing Red Sonja despite being little, weak and overweight. It's more fun to role play bluff or diplomacy, and I would generally give a small bonus if it's done well, but I believe you have to let people just roll the die if that's what they prefer.
That is to say, I always have a reasonably high charisma on my characters.
*Not*, however, to "force" people to treat my characters well, but because I, as a person, am highly social and I like to play social characters. I think dumping CHA and then playing someone who is reasonable, affable and genial is silly. I consider it my own little RP tax.
:-D I could have written that.
One of my LFR characters is an 8 Charisma dwarven fighter, specifically created as an answer to a challenge from a friend, who essentially dared me to make a character who had (a) a low Charisma, (b) no interpersonal skills, and (c) no abilities to help / buff other PCs...and then, to actually play the character that way. ;-) He's a fun character to play, but it really does force me to go against type.
It's not that I think charisma skills should be thrown away, because if you're trying to actually do something difficult, you should have a skill check.
But people in this other thread seem to think you need charisma checks just for going about your everyday life, which is silly, and just meant as a punishment for people they see as min/maxers.
Also, there's no reason why you can't be a nice, gregarious guy with a low charisma. Charisma is your ability to influence people around you, basically. You can be a good guy, and just... unable to grab anybody's attention. Forgettable. Or you could be overly gregarious, and people just stop listening. There's no rule that CHA 8 is a mandatory jerkass sentence.
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Charisma (Cha)Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance. It is the most important ability for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to channel energy. For undead creatures, Charisma is a measure of their unnatural “lifeforce.” Every creature has a Charisma score. A character with a Charisma score of 0 is not able to exert himself in any way and is unconscious.
I don't see anything in this description which says, "A high score forces everyone within sight of the character to like that character."
It should not come to a surprise to any player that actions have consequences. A beautiful, gorgeous, talented person can make a horrible gaffe or hurt someone and become disliked as a consequence--see just about every celebrity ever.
Absolutely there is a time and place for die roll checks. If a group of people are hostile, there is a mechanic for shifting their reaction to a less hostile disposition -- it's called a Diplomacy check. There is absolutely nothing that should stop the GM from asking for one.
"I have a high Charisma so they shouldn't be mad."
"Well, your high Charisma modifier will certainly help when you make that Diplomacy roll to shift their attitude from hostile to something else. Please make the check."
No, social skill rolls should not be made for everyday circumstances and interactions, but if it's a matter of contention or something that shouldn't be simply assumed, it is more than reasonable to ask for a skill or ability check. I had a situation where we had a high Cha, high Bluff Shadowdancer lie to a fellow PC, a high Wis, high Sense Motive Paladin (over something that was important to the storyline). They were both really good at what they did. Even though you're not normally to have these die roll checks between PCs, I asked the two to roll opposing Bluff/Sense Motive. They both felt that was fair and the issue was resolved easily.
The player is clearly making a lot of assumptions--and hiding behind the rulebook--to try and get away with a metric buttload of douchebaggery.
Sit down and have a chat with him, civilly, calmly, evenly, about what stats mean and what they don't, and that you WILL have his negative actions result in reasonable consequences.
If he is uncooperative and disruptive and refuses to be civil when you deal with the situation civilly, it may be time time find a new player.
One question...when you say characters do you mean PC's?
Characters is sort of vague, if he is acting like a boob and his high charisma is being use to force the other players not to treat him as such that cant stand. Players have latitude in how they react even if he makes a good roll.
Beyond that somethings no matter how smooth of a talker you may be cannot be talked away. If he lets a spell go and cuts down a family of farmers at the knees..having a nice voice and a winning smile, will not keep the pitch forks and torches in the towns folks barns.
ALSO IT TRANSLATES DIRECTLY TO INCHES.
Tell him only the bonus does. :P
DQ - good post, but I want to focus on this little bit.
No, social skill rolls should not be made for everyday circumstances and interactions
After reading poster's comments over the last 2 or 3 years, it seems to me that there are a whole bunch of DMs who do just this. Seems like they demand CHA checks every time a PC opens his or her mouth. I find it to be more than a little bit ridiculous and in some cases, extremely vindictive.
I don't think making diplomacy checks to ask where the general store is to find trail rations is a good use of gametime. This players seems like he wants his character to be bad. The Demagogue bard archtype uses charisma and I don't think they are liked.