Property rights for the undead in Varisia


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion


In a world in which death can be a minor affliction how are property rights resolved for the recently deceased (or undeceased)?

Case 1: If the party defeats an undead nobleman who leaves behind neither a will nor next of kin, can the party claim his lands (perhaps via some sort of probate hearing)?

Case 2: If an NPC dies and has his property claimed via some legal mechanism, can he file for the return of his property upon his resurrection? What about reincarnation? Do all races have equal protection under the law? What is the legal impact of spells like Speak with Dead?

Also, do organizations created strictly for nefarious purposes have property rights? Do legal establishments protect, say evil cults worshipping forgotten gods? Or can a cultist have their property confiscated simply for being a member of a criminal organization?

Dark Archive

1. In almost anywhere other than Geb, undead aren't going to have much in the way of rights.

However, the Ankar-Te quadrant of Kaer Maga, which happens to be plotzed down in the middle of Varisia, would be one exception.

Also note that plenty of figures could flat out lie about their current status. A vampire count who lives in the castle on the hill, careful about who invites to his parties (no paladins!), could maintain the deception of still being alive for decades, until his lack of aging starts to arouse suspicion (at which point he can dominate the hell out of someone and stage his death and have the dominated flunky 'inherit' while he remains the power behind the throne). Ghouls and liches could do the same, using magic to conceal their condition, or ruling from behind the scenes.

2. If he planned ahead, he arranged for the property to pass on to someone who he trusts to give it back after he returns. (A 'Bruce Wayne leaves his fortune and control of the company to Alfred before disappearing for ten years' kind of scenario.)

Naturally, the plot coagulates if the trusted 'inheritor' decides that he doesn't want to give it back, and perhaps even tries to sabotage attempts to ressurect his patron... (Oh, someone stole the diamonds and replaced them with fakes? Oh, someone stole *the body* and replaced it with a soulless simulacra? Oh, someone in the family insulted the heck out of High Priest Benvolio and he won't cast the spell for less than ten times the going rate? Tragedy! I guess I have to keep the castle!)

3. Depends on the area. In Nidal or Cheliax, 'evil cults' are the state religion and have all the property rights they want. But land once owned by the church of Desna in Nidal is going to be seized, and land owned by a bunch of folk discovered to be worshipping a demon lord in Cheliax is likely to also be seized. Ditto Sarenraen shrines in Taldor, or *any* temples or shrines in Rahadoum.

But even Aroden, as dead as dead can get, still has properties scattered around the Inner Sea region. Many have been purchased and retrofitted into churches to Iomedae (or Abadar, or Asmodeus, depending on the area), but others are still standing, and, even in Cheliax, they aren't being seized or taken over by force.

Different areas will have different levels of tolerance. Open temples to Urgathoa might be uncommon anywhere other than Geb, for instance, and you might not find a well-attended temple to Rovagug outside of the Hold of Belkzen.

As for criminals, hard to say. The default medieval assumption is that the state already owns all the land anyway, and that the filthy rabble are just squatting upon it. If someone is dragged away to the jail (or hanging yard...), the state is almost guaranteed to seize their property and re-assign it for other use (generally as a 'gift' to some suck-up noble's third spawnling, or, if it's a potential source of continuing trouble, such as reeking mire infested by goblins, as a 'reward' to those smelly lowborn 'adventurers' that cleared it out in the first place).


Interesting questions, but there is an issue that makes it a bit complicated. Talking about law "in Varisia" is sort of like talking about law "in Europe." There is no central government, so things vary. You can be sure Magnimar, Kaer Maga, and the Shoanti tribes agree with very little in regards to "law." This extends over the whole setting, and one can assume different nations will have wildly different answers to these questions.

That said, we can still guess. Because speculation is fun!

In Case 1, I'd say it probably devolves to whatever authority is around. Maybe another regional leader, the town itself, etc. Of course, that authority may choose to give some part of it to the PCs as a reward. Or, if they choose to take it, there is a good chance nobody will be able to do anything about it. Golarion is a low-level place, after all, and PCs go from scrubs to demigods pretty darned fast.

In Case 2, it is probably going to be a complicated court case, due to lack of precedent. Again, Golarion is pretty low level. Getting someone who can pull of a raise dead is going to be rare as it is, and the time frame of that spell means you can probably assume after a few weeks that someone is irrevocably dead. The price and level of resurrection, along with the chance the soul doesn't wish to return, mean that I doubt most jurisdictions have ever had to deal with this sort of thing.

On the subject of reincarnation, it is going to depend on your ability to convince people. One shouldn't be surprised if, after coming back as a totally different race, people assume you are just an imposter. Actually, that would be a cool adventure. Someone comes to town claiming to be the reincarnation of a rich noble, and you need to prove it true or false.

Whether races have equal rights is going to depend on the area. Troll seers are commonly used and accepted in Kaer Maga, while such a creature in Magnimar would probably be run straight out of town.

With speak with dead, we thankfully don't have to speculate quite so much. It is addressed in Trial of the Beast. It was considered an "extraordinary case," and you had to succeed at a diplomacy check for it to be allowed, but the evidence was considered pretty absolute. So we know how that goes... at least in Lepidstadt.

Evil cults... again, region. Good aligned places may well confiscate property, or just destroy it. Evil places will be fine, depending on the evil you worship. Cheliax will be fine with a Zon-Kuthon, though they will probably execute on the spot for demon worship.

Grand Lodge

Humphey Boggard wrote:

In a world in which death can be a minor affliction how are property rights resolved for the recently deceased (or undeceased)?

In most worlds, Death is still a final process save for the elite who can get themselves a raise or ressurection service. (spellcasting costs being forever beyond the range of the average peasant and most townsmen)

For the rest it can vary, and that's entirely up to the DM. For most purposes, undead are counted as dead. For other cases that depends on the law. One land may very welll rule that the first death kicks inheritance procedures right into play.

Remember that in most systems, rights are granted, not inalienable. If it's a monarchy/aristarchy, rights are only what the ruling parties grant, frequently taken back at whim.

Liberty's Edge

Remember also Galt. The entire reason for the Final Blades was so that those nobles could NOT be brought back to life.

It seems that countries like Andoran and Cheliax would have a great many laws put into place for such things. I'd suppose that a capital criminal would be charged and given policies like 'for even if you cheat death, you cannot cheat the law' that will still carry sentencing if that person ever pops again after an execution.

Otherwise, for those grey zones - that's why governments and people in power HIRE adventurers in the first place.

"So, we have an embarrassment on our hands... Lord Rothgar-von-SuchandSuch was hanged today, and now he's laughing at us from his tower 'cuz he was a flippin Vampire. Could you people please take care of this issue in exchange for some good old tax-dollar recompense? Thanks."

Set said wrote:
the state is almost guaranteed to seize their property and re-assign it for other use (generally as a 'gift' to some suck-up noble's third spawnling, or, if it's a potential source of continuing trouble, such as reeking mire infested by goblins, as a 'reward' to those smelly lowborn 'adventurers' that cleared it out in the first place).

Side note, the Exact Plot for most of Might & Magic VII.


Cheliax (and thus Isger too) recognize at least some undead as having rights. Nidal's emissary to the House of Thrune is an outed vampire, and IIRC at least one high ranking member of the Church of Asmodeus is a lich.

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