Hello dear forum-goers, I hope this post finds you well. I have made this post in the hopes that I might get some help on a pet project that I want to start.
Recently I have been digging through my old copy of Libris Mortis and I came to the section in chapter 2 that presents the various intelligent undead as classes that a player could take in order to be a member of these grisly races. So I started thinking about the system as it stands and, while I think it works all right, it was always something of an oddity to me. (I never owned Savage Species, so this book was the first time that I had encountered the idea of monstrous class levels.) Maybe not so in 3.5 as that edition was full of strange things by the end of its run, but definitely so within the realm of Pathfinder. Regardless, I believe there is some merit in the idea of monstrous class levels that allow players to be an Undead character without all the bother of level adjustments. So, inspired by the recent attempts of Master Arminas and several others on the boards, I had decided to work toward rebuilding these classes into a playable format for Pathfinder and bringing them in line with the other options in Pathfinder. I also want your help to do it, because I doubt much good can come out of doing this in a vacuum.
The first question that needs answering is whether or not the class format works. Well, maybe it would be better to say that the first question is whether or not it is effective. As an alternative to actual class levels, I wonder if it would be better for a player to begin with the undead class as their race and have it level up as they do. So a player would not begin as a first level Ghoul who has to wade through all eight levels of Ghoul before taking levels in a base class, but instead start as a Ghoul of whatever class they wanted and, as they gained more and more hit dice, would unlock more and more powers. Along the way they would grow from a lesser ghoul to a full grown ghast. The same would follow for the other undead races.
For the record, I want to start the project with just the undead classes that appeared in Libris Mortis. That means we have: The Ghoul, The Mohrg, The Mummy, The Vampire Spawn (who we will just be calling The Vampire), and The Wight. We can expand it later to include other undead races that might prove interesting, such as the Necropolitan.
|
I'm not much good with brewing races, so I'll have to pass on that part of this.
However, I would like to say that the concept of a PC starting as a low level Ghoul and then gaining more power racial as well as through their class seems horribly un-balanced.
Personally, I would go with the approach of having it be as the other races. You start with your racial abilities and that's what you get.
As an alternative to actual class levels, I wonder if it would be better for a player to begin with the undead class as their race and have it level up as they do. So a player would not begin as a first level Ghoul who has to wade through all eight levels of Ghoul before taking levels in a base class, but instead start as a Ghoul of whatever class they wanted and, as they gained more and more hit dice, would unlock more and more powers. Along the way they would grow from a lesser ghoul to a full grown ghast.
So you're saying I could (a) play a human or an elf, and get no extra racial abilities as I level up to become, say, a 10th level rogue... or I could play a ghoul, and get ghast powers as I level up (in addition to being a 10th level rogue)... or I could play a vampire, and get vampire powers in addition to everything a 10th level rogue gets? Can I play a god and get god powers for free as I level up?
The class-level format is the ONLY way to make powerful races at all balanced. What I don't like about the way WOTC did it is the HD-less levels, which are a deal-breaker. On the other hand, a vampire with 8 undead HD (treating each one as a class level), who gets the vampire powers spread across those levels, and who can of course multiclass as another character... that's what I've done HERE (Open the "races" document and scroll down to Appendix C).
On the other hand, a vampire with 8 undead HD (treating each one as a class level), who gets the vampire powers spread across those levels, and who can of course multiclass as another character... that's what I've done HERE (Open the "races" document and scroll down to Appendix C).
Is this balanced for Pathfinder, or is it Kirthfinder only?
In my defense, I only thought to suggest that the race level up in addition to the original class idea at the moment I was writing the post and threw in the question; as I said, I was hoping to get the help of the community on this and want to air some some possibilities. I remember that a key issue of the Monster Class Levels was that your powers rarely compared with other classes and it took a while to reach the end of your class so that you could finally start taking class levels. Hell, the damn Mohrg has a full twenty level progression and there is no way that thing was balanced against a level 20 character in 3.5 (let along in Pathfinder!). However, I can see how this sort of thing would be flawed, so I will leave it be.
Now the Vampire and Lich presented in Appendix C are exactly the sort of thing that I was thinking about, as it mirrors the progression that was in Libris Mortis and greatly improves on it. However, I really want to try and get the flavor of the of the undead races down to its purest form and in as few levels as possibly to facilitate playing a base class as soon as possible. Otherwise I think it would be wise to go the exact opposite route and make the undead character an archetypical example of his or her race and make it a full twenty level class. Much like the Vampire class in Heroes of Shadow for 4E.
Thoughts?
My thoughts:
Treat this as a form of prestige class, in a sense. The requirement is that they have to be turned into an undead. The first thing that happens is that they aquire the "Undead template."
You'll have to probably write it up yourself, but thoughts include:
-The threat of being affected by channel energy.
-The ability to heal by consuming living (depending on type of undead)
-etc.
The template should be fairly minimal. Then, the character has the option of advancing in the "prestige class" (i.e. take it at level 1 on their next advancement and go from there) or to continue on in their own class.
I would also consider a "Humanity" stat or something similar to represent the character fighting his new nature, and not trying to "eat" or kill his party.
I really want to try and get the flavor of the of the undead races down to its purest form and in as few levels as possibly to facilitate playing a base class as soon as possible. Otherwise I think it would be wise to go the exact opposite route and make the undead character an archetypical example of his or her race and make it a full twenty level class. Much like the Vampire class in Heroes of Shadow for 4E. Thoughts?
It's tricky, because you want to make 1 level of undead = 1 level of a real PC class, but if you stop at "X" levels (essentially forcing the character to multiclass), you need to make sure the "X" levels of undead + "Y" levels in anything else isn't a total loss (like a wizard 4/cleric 4/bard 5 would be nearly useless to a 13th level party). Frank and K in their "Tome" stuff pretty much laid out the groundwork for advanced monster classes -- they custom-designed a number of different prestige classes for each of several monsters, so you'll probably want to check that out when you get a chance.
Is this balanced for Pathfinder, or is it Kirthfinder only?
I can't see why those examples wouldn't work in a normal Pathfinder game.
I always wondered what it would be like to play a Gestalt game with the Monstrous classes available. Conceivably, you would have to start the racial class right away, and finish it before you take your second class (though in some circumstances, I could see exceptions, especially after reading Rite Publishing's "In the Company of Minotaurs" and "Kappa").
That way, the "ordinary" races have a benefit- you get two classes outright. But that way, you can play a budding Undead and your "primary" class too. You can also have monsters as spellcasters without having to give them arbitrary spell-like abilities based on racial HD anymore.
I must admit that I can easily see problems- constructs, undead and other critters with a lot of basic immunities/resistances/intangibility inherent in their creature type still aren't "fixed" properly, but then again, they never really were. Templates are still a problem. Synergy is still a problem, but already is with gestalt to a certain extent.
I would almost say that synergy is less of a problem with the monster classes, because they wouldn't fight each other with abilities as they grow (as, say, Wizard and Fighter do with arcane spell failure, full attack actions and Armor Mastery). They simply would complement poorly, but wouldn't necessarily counteract one another.
It's tricky, because you want to make 1 level of undead = 1 level of a real PC class, but if you stop at "X" levels (essentially forcing the character to multiclass), you need to make sure the "X" levels of undead + "Y" levels in anything else isn't a total loss (like a wizard 4/cleric 4/bard 5 would be nearly useless to a 13th level party). Frank and K in their "Tome" stuff pretty much laid out the groundwork for advanced monster classes -- they custom-designed a number of different prestige classes for each of several monsters, so you'll probably want to check that out when you get a chance.
Agreed, which was one of the reasons I wanted to look into something other than a level system for these undead characters; they make terrible spellcasters. I guess that could just be one of the penalties of being undead, but it seems too artificial to me. Perhaps a feat or trait that would be available to undead only? Something to explore later.
What are the "'Tome' stuff"? I am guessing they are a collection of game books, but I am not familiar with them.