I'll say it up front: I suck at tactics.
The party has just cleared the thistle maze and more or less all resistance on the first level of Thistletop, capturing Ripnugget (they captured Gogmurt too, but let him go). They haven't yet discovered the dungeon levels, but when they do, I think they'll turn back to Sandpoint to restock and recover.
My question is: with the goblins wiped out, what would Nualia & Co.'s response be? Surely she wouldn't just keep on researching as though nothing had happened? How would they set up a defense of the fort without the goblins if they have a day or more to prepare?
Where would they set up to cause the most grief to trespassers? Any specific tactics they might use would be welcome.
If it helps, the party has just hit 3rd level. One of them is a paladin of Sarenrae who used to know Nualia. I imagine a chance for her to redeem Nualia if she plays her cards right.
My question is: with the goblins wiped out, what would Nualia & Co.'s response be? Surely she wouldn't just keep on researching as though nothing had happened?
Between the hounds, Orik, Lyrie, the bugbear and Nualia - they could mount a pretty good defense if they put their minds to it. (Has Tsuto been neutralized yet?) If you can manage the CRs, why not add some more goblins to the mix. Perhaps they were not present during the first run through (out harrassing random animals, maybe). They could even be goblin commandos. Now they rally back under Gogmurt's leadership. Don't forget his animal companion.
Even if you don't use the goblins, you still have quite a bit of fire power.
How would they set up a defense of the fort without the goblins if they have a day or more to prepare?Where would they set up to cause the most grief to trespassers? Any specific tactics they might use would be welcome.
Thistletop can be defended easily with a skeleton crew. Securing the rope bridge is key. Make sure an assault from the water side is not possible. Ranged attacks from the watch towers can be deadly. Use Gogmurt's and Nualia's magic + magic items appropriately. The yeth hounds' Bay ability can be very effective.
If it helps, the party has just hit 3rd level. One of them is a paladin of Sarenrae who used to know Nualia. I imagine a chance for her to redeem Nualia if she plays her cards right.
Of course this is completely up to how you want to play it out. That said, I'm skeptical that Nualia can be redeemed. Her background makes her a good candidate for redemption. But in her mind, she has much more to gain by winning Lamashtu's favor and becoming a demon than going back to the light. And what would she go back to - a lifetime of regret without friends or family and a demon arm? I think she's too far gone already. Besides, Lamashtu probably holds some sway over her as well.
Between the hounds, Orik, Lyrie, the bugbear and Nualia - they could mount a pretty good defense if they put their minds to it. (Has Tsuto been neutralized yet?) If you can manage the CRs, why not add some more goblins to the mix. Perhaps they were not present during the first run through (out harrassing random animals, maybe). They could even be goblin commandos. Now they rally back under Gogmurt's leadership. Don't forget his animal companion.Even if you don't use the goblins, you still have quite a bit of fire power.
I know Nualia and her crew could mount a good defense, it's the specifics of that defense I'm worried about (since I have the tactical sense of a goblin). I guess I could bring a few goblins that were out raiding back, but Gogmurt had a pretty bad scare (and Tangletooth died), so I don't see him coming back for a few days at least, when he thinks the coast is clear again. I'd have Bruthazmus take over the goblins if/when Ripnugget dies.
Thistletop can be defended easily with a skeleton crew. Securing the rope bridge is key. Make sure an assault from the water side is not possible. Ranged attacks from the watch towers can be deadly. Use Gogmurt's and Nualia's magic + magic items appropriately. The yeth hounds' Bay ability can be very effective.
Hmm. I wonder how long it would take before things got bad enough that her crew would disturb Nualia... probably not long, even if they managed to pin the party on the bridge. Any good advice on tricky ways to use her magic and magic items?
Of course this is completely up to how you want to play it out. That said, I'm skeptical that Nualia can be redeemed. Her background makes her a good candidate for redemption. But in her mind, she has much more to gain by winning Lamashtu's favor and becoming a demon than going back to the light. And what would she go back to - a lifetime of regret without friends or family and a demon arm? I think she's too far gone already. Besides, Lamashtu probably holds some sway over her as well.
I kind of agree, but I want to at least give the player a chance to shine his paladin's light here, even if it's a small chance and hard to do. Some advice on how to structure this challenge would be welcome also.
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My group is halfway through Skinsaw Murders now.
I have a six-character party, so I've been beefing up the encounters accordingly. When I ran Burnt Offerings, my version of Nualia was a 6th-level cleric, and my version of Lyrie was a 5th-level necromancer. After the party had killed the goblins of the Thistletop fortress, they returned to Sandpoint to rest and resupply before braving the dungeons.
After the party left, I had Nualia and Lyrie cast animate dead and lesser animate dead to make a bunch of zombie goblins. These were then assigned to guard the thistle maze and entry room (and attack any non-goblin they saw). I also decided that a raiding party of eight goblins (one commando, one warchanter, six warriors) returned after the party had left. I had Bruthazmus declare himself head of the goblin tribe, and he moved into Ripnugget's room, taking Ripnuggets wives with him.
When the party returned the next day, they were both surprised and creeped out to encounter undead versions of the goblins they'd encountered the previous day. Another thing that creeped them out was finding dozens of additional dead goblins stacked like cordwood in the courtyard. (Nualia planned to animate these later). The Second Battle of Thistletop was a lesser challenge than the first, but the players still talk about the zombie goblins and how creepy they were.
I like the zombie idea - I think I've read about it elsewhere on the boards too. I'm a little nervous about making Nualia and her crew meaner, though - my group is also 6 PCs + Shalelu, and they nearly got toasted both under Sandpoint and in the thistle maze with Gogmurt. Let us say that their grasp of tactics has not been much better than mine so far.
I just got word that the party is planning to stay locked in a room in Thistletop to recover rather than going back to Sandpoint.
I figure Bruthazmus will try to break in a few times, then if it doesn't look like the party is coming out or he's getting in, they'll zombify some goblins... the PCs will make short work of them, but I'm not sure where the others in Nualia's crew might stay.
I like the zombie idea - I think I've read about it elsewhere on the boards too. I'm a little nervous about making Nualia and her crew meaner, though - my group is also 6 PCs + Shalelu, and they nearly got toasted both under Sandpoint and in the thistle maze with Gogmurt. Let us say that their grasp of tactics has not been much better than mine so far.
I just got word that the party is planning to stay locked in a room in Thistletop to recover rather than going back to Sandpoint.
I figure Bruthazmus will try to break in a few times, then if it doesn't look like the party is coming out or he's getting in, they'll zombify some goblins... the PCs will make short work of them, but I'm not sure where the others in Nualia's crew might stay.
My players are usually very good at tactics. I've needed to beef up the threat level consistently to provide a credible challenge. (I found that out when they explored the Catacombs of Wrath-- they walked over everything without breaking a sweat.) But they were seriously creeped out by the zombie goblins, and that was worth the price of designing the encounter! The zombies weren't that much of a challenge, but the party did end up wasting precious resources against them.
If you're interested, I posted my stats for Nualia here.
Thanks, Haladir! That will make things much easier for me if I decide she's too weak for them! :)
Any chance you also have Lyrie up somewhere?
Thanks, Haladir! That will make things much easier for me if I decide she's too weak for them! :)
Any chance you also have Lyrie up somewhere?
No, but I've copied-and-pasted her stats below.
It's long, so I've spoilered it. I'm not going to take the time to properly format it, but you should be able to read it.
LYRIE CR 4
Human female wizard 5 (necromancer)
CE Medium humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses: Per +5
DEFENSE
AC 12 [16], touch 12, flat-foot 10 [14]
(+2 Dex +3 natural [+4 mage armor])
hp 35 (5d6+5)
Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +4
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft,
Melee dagger +4 (1d4-1) or touch +4
Ranged: ray +4 (ranged touch)
Special Attacks: spell-like abilities
Spells Prepared:
3-level: ray of exhaustion (x2)* (DC 18), vampiric touch*
2-level: false life*, invisibility, mirror image, ray of negative energy *, summon undead II
1-level: chill touch* (DC 16), infernal healing (x2), mage armor, ray of enfeeblement* (DC 16)
0-level: bleed* (DC 15), detect magic, ghost sound, mage hand
*- Necromancy spell (+1 caster level)
STATISTICS
Str 8, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 13
BAB +2; CMB +1; CMD 13
Feats: Combat Casting, Command Undead, Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus (necromancy), Varisian Tattoo (necromancy), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (ray)
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) +12, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +12, Knowledge (history) +12, Perception +5, Spellcraft +12, Stealth +12
SQ: Concentration +9; +13 to cast defensively)
Languages: Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Thassilonian, Varisian
Gear: wand of ray of negative energy[CL3] (28 charges), Gold and emerald amulet (radiates faint magic of necromancy school) (worth 200 gp) [her bonded object], wand of arcane lock (10 charges) potion of cure light wounds, potion of barkskin, scroll of comprehend language, scroll of minor image, scroll of invisibility, scroll of infernal healing, scroll of false life, cloak of elvenkind, MW dagger, Harrow deck, silver and mother-of-pearl comb (25 gp), fine silk gown (60 gp), small pouch containing: nail clippings, a lock of hair, a small folded-up sketch of Lyrie, and a pearl earring (worth 50 gp) - -all were stolen from Tsuto, 25 gp, 3 pp.
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Command Undead (Su): (7/day) Can channel negative energy to command undead as an evil cleric. DC 13.
Grave Touch (Sp): Melee touch attack causes victim to become shaken (no save). A shaken creature touched becomes frightened.
Touch of Fatigue (Sp) (3/day)
Bonded Object (Su): Can cast one additional known spell per day as if it had been prepared.
Barred Schools: Enchantment and Evocation
Spellbook
3-level: explosive runes, lesser animate dead, ray of exhaustion, vampiric touch
2-level: false life, knock, invisibility, lesser Harrowing, locate object, mirror image, ray of negative energy, summon undead II
1-level: chill touch, cause fear, comprehend languages, detect secret doors, detect undead, infernal healing, mage armor, ray of enfeeblement, unseen servant
0-level: all from CRB except enchantment and evocation, plus: exterminate, preserve organ
TACTICS
Before Combat: If she has enough time, she will cast mage armor, quaff her potion of barkskin, and cast mirror image, false life, and summon undead II to bring in two human skeletons.
During Combat: She tries to avoid melee at all costs. She will throw ray of exhaustion at the toughest-looking figher, followed by ray of negative energy. If in melee, she’ll user her wand of ray of negative energy.
Morale: Lyrie is a coward and will attempt to flee if she feels that she won’t be able to get the upper hand in a fight. She’ll use invisibility and stealth to try to get away. If cornered, she assumes that the party will do to her what she’d do to them, and will then grimly fight to the death.
There are a few nonstandard spells in her spellbook. Some were from Inner Sea World Guide, some were modified versions from other 3.5 sources such as Book of Vile Darkness, Libris Mortis, and Heroes of Horror. Just swap them for spells you're using in your campaign.
Thanks, Haladir! That will make things much easier for me if I decide she's too weak for them! :)
Any chance you also have Lyrie up somewhere?
No, but I've copied-and-pasted her stats below.
It's long, so I've spoilered it. I'm not going to take the time to properly format it, but you should be able to read it.
This is awesome. Thanks a ton! :D
I see she has lesser animate dead. With the party staying at Thistletop, she won't have a chance to prepare and cast it that much to produce enough zombies to get in their way. Any advice on that? Should I just fudge it?
I see she has lesser animate dead. With the party staying at Thistletop, she won't have a chance to prepare and cast it that much to produce enough zombies to get in their way. Any advice on that? Should I just fudge it?
The party's spending the night in Thistletop? Wow-- gutsy of them!
If my group had decided to do that, they would certainly be detected and attacked in the middle of the night, before the spellcasters got a chance to re-prep spells.
Anyway, I did fudge it a bit: I decided that both Lyrie and Nualia had prepped all of their available third-level spell slots with lesser animate dead and animate dead (respectively) on the day of the initial raid, so that they could maximize the zombification.
BTW, I forced the players' hands to make them flee Thistletop-- after they won the battle in the Throne Room, and had finished looting their vanquished foes, I had a bunch of bad guys from downstairs burst into the room from the side door. This panicked the players, who knew that they were out of resources, and they withdrew from the fort, and hightailed it back to Sandpoint.
A detailed account of that encounter is here.
My group tried to lay up in the thistle maze just outside, got a couple hours break (I determined the goblins had hunkered down behind the gates, and it took them a while to get from there, to deciding to send out some recce, to actually getting "volunteers" moving). Then the party got bumped by a small group of gobbos and goblin dogs.
They annihilated that group, but instead of turning tail they decided that since the place was alerted anyway, they should pile in before the defensive preparations got any stronger. One ridiculously perfect series of turns and door selections later, they were fighting Ripnugget's room, and then they collected his head and ran like hell for home.
I have to decide before tomorrow evening what Nualia's going to do. In our storyline the PC bard is the guy she got pregnant with, and I'm considering scenarios where she makes a last-ditch attempt to carve his heart out/light him on fire. Not very strategically sound but her plans are unravelling pretty badly and she's in a bad mental/spiritual place.
The party's spending the night in Thistletop? Wow-- gutsy of them!
Gutsy or something... *g* I'm springing Bruthazmus and Orik on them as a suggestion to return to Sandpoint and restock, but if they stay after that, they'll definitely have visitors during the night (and eerie chanting and groans from little throats in the background, muahahah).
Thanks for the link to your account of what happened. :)
The idea with the burning skeleton is interesting, I may use that. Thanks, Doug.
I'd be interested to hear how things go for your group, jasonfahy. I love that your bard is tied to Nualia like that.
I stole the idea about Bruthazmus taking over the goblins; the humans left him in charge and he's beasting them around turning Thistletop into a defensive nightmare. (Details to be worked out later.)
Christopher, the bard, had been racing around talking to Zantus and Quint accumulating background about the runewells (they got hungry for intel after seeing the birth of a sinspawn) so the half-baked plan was to snatch him while he was walking the streets alone, haul him back to Thistletop under cover of night and do the burned offering thing.
Chris pulled out all the stops to escape, made some ace Acrobatics checks and held on until help arrived, so that came to naught. Orik and Lyrie have now made the point that frantic risky stunts like this are going to get them all dead, and the next moves are going to be cautious, considered and ruthless. (First step - checking what kind of scrying they're capable of.)
It wasn't an "eventful" session in the reducing-hp-to-zero sense; lots of dialogue and investigation. They seemed ok with that, which is nice. (Two of the players are good RPers I've known a long time; two others I've never played with before this campaign so gradually learning what they like.)
I love hearing about how other groups deal with this adventure. There's a lot of variation within the borders the adventure sets up, and the creativity is fun to watch.
For obvious reasons, I'd be interested in what you come up with to defend Thistletop, too...
The first time the party approached Thistletop they had a terrifying time getting across The Bridge of Doom - so while that's an obvious place for the defenses to kick in, I'm worried about repeating myself.
The party has a bow-specialist fighter but is otherwise very light on ranged; I could have archers in the towers and then a couple goblins on dogs behind the gates, ready to do a Helm's Deep charge when the PCs are halfway across the (now-reinforced) bridge. (I would, of course, have to have them shout at least one Theoden quote in a crazed goblin voice and see if anyone catches it.)
My other dilemma is what's in the basement. Could leave it as Malfeshnikor(?), but in that other thread someone wrote about using a weakened Runelord Alaznist, maybe just awakened from stasis, as the BBEG to make sure the players are oriented onto the right parts of the story. I feel like Burnt Offerings is kind of watered down thematically by critters like Malfeshnikor and Ely-whatsit the Quasit. They're so powerful that there's a tendency to assume they're important parts of the main plot, when in fact their involvement is peripheral and accidental.
Ok - the bridge has been reinforced and repaired. By goblins. (Handrails? No.)
The party starts across it, seems safe enough. Then the arrows start. Goblins from across the way start charging onto the bridge, and you start very visibly, openly keeping track of how much weight is on the bridge. (My party's tank is a big boy - I think he's 220 dripping wet.) Every round another 0-2 goblins step onto the bridge and the load gets a little higher. The challenge is to knock goblins off the bridge, without having too many PCs on the bridge, so that the bridge doesn't collapse until the party gets across.
Possibly over the top: hanging back is a hugely fat goblin (Grom?) who isn't joining the battle because he's busy eating something. The other goblins keep appealing to Grom to come and trash the longshanks. For a long time he ignores them. Then when the party's getting close to the end, create a terrifying climax by having this oversized goblin step out onto the bridge, which starts to groan ominously...
Also possibly over the top: either it's raining, making the bridge slippery, or there's an early frost, or the goblins have oiled the bridge for ill-planned and pyromaniacal reasons. People tend to slide down to the middle of the bridge and have trouble getting up the other side.
Jasonfahy, how did you handle the 'knock the goblins off the bridge' part? Did you just say every hit did it, or...? I love your ideas. Haha, Grom is awesome.
The group I ran through that part saw the goblins on the other side of the bridge and the goblins started shooting arrows at them to scare them off.So the big dumb fighter cut the rope bridge down.
Hahahaha! How did they end up getting across?
My party sabotaged the already trapped bridge (none of them tripped the trap on the way over, so they don't realize it's trapped), so now they're on the island and the bridge will snap the moment anyone steps onto it. Not sure what their idea was with that...
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Jasonfahy, how did you handle the 'knock the goblins off the bridge' part? Did you just say every hit did it, or...? I love your ideas. Haha, Grom is awesome.
The group I ran through that part saw the goblins on the other side of the bridge and the goblins started shooting arrows at them to scare them off.So the big dumb fighter cut the rope bridge down.Hahahaha! How did they end up getting across?
My party sabotaged the already trapped bridge (none of them tripped the trap on the way over, so they don't realize it's trapped), so now they're on the island and the bridge will snap the moment anyone steps onto it. Not sure what their idea was with that...
They went back to town, rented a boat and ended up climbing up the cliff face on the opposite side.
Jasonfahy, how did you handle the 'knock the goblins off the bridge' part? Did you just say every hit did it, or...? I love your ideas. Haha, Grom is awesome.
Haven't locked that down yet...we're playing next Saturday. I'll probably have trip and bull rush force a reflex save (DC10???) to stay on the bridge deck. I considered allowing 'knockoff attacks' with a hit penalty which force a fall check, but it's so easy to one-shot a goblin anyway, I'm not sure it's worth offering that.
Might start it as a straight-up fight on the goblins' part, and then have them enthusiastically copy whatever knock-off tactics the PCs use.
And then, because I don't want everybody to end up in the drink, I'm going to say that the understructure of the bridge is absolute chaos of goblin carpentry, with boards and nails sticking out in non-Euclidean directions - so if you're knocked off the deck you make some other save to catch hold of part of that mess, and have a chance to climb/jump back up. (I try to work at least a couple skill-use opportunities into most fights.)
bigkilla: Sounds reasonable. The lookouts don't expect anyone from that side, either.
Might start it as a straight-up fight on the goblins' part, and then have them enthusiastically copy whatever knock-off tactics the PCs use.
Haha, I can absolutely see the goblins doing that. Annoying little ankle-biters. *g*
And then, because I don't want everybody to end up in the drink, I'm going to say that the understructure of the bridge is absolute chaos of goblin carpentry, with boards and nails sticking out in non-Euclidean directions - so if you're knocked off the deck you make some other save to catch hold of part of that mess, and have a chance to climb/jump back up. (I try to work at least a couple skill-use opportunities into most fights.)
I'll have to remember that for when my second group makes it this far. I've already envisioned the fort as pretty much a giant windfall/logjam, so this meshes nicely with that.