I recently came across quite a find from The Guide to the River Kingdoms, specifically Salve of the Second Chance-a wondrous item that mimics the functionality of Reincarnate.
Some observations I have:
-Reincarnate the spell has a material component of 1000 gold while this item only costs 800 gold to create.
-Reincarnate is, from my readings, the earliest spell PCs will be able to access that can bring back dead party members (druids of level 7 can use it), SotSC on the other hand can be accessed by any caster at CL 3 with the craft wondrous item feat and all you need to do is pass a DC 17 (5 base + 7 CL + 5 can't cast Reincarnate) Spellcraft check after working on the item for 2 days.
-If used on the New Moon (once per ~4 weeks, though subject to GM discretion) SotSC gives the player two rolls on the chart. I assume it has a window of 1 week to raise the dead (as per Reincarnate) giving any PC that has died a 25% chance of being within the window of the New Moon and therefore able to take their two rolls.
This item seems absolutely absurd in terms of accessibility. The only major drawback (that I see) is that there is no way to remove a permanent negative level at 3rd level, but that would hold true for any resurrection attempt (aside from GM intervention). As the item crafter for my current party should I refrain from accessing this item?
PS. My GM is very permissive and I doubt he would stop me from using it, but I think it would take too much of the edge off of dying.
I think the item's fine. Reincarnate messes with your ability scores. If you were a human wizard who put his racial bonus into Intelligence, coming back will automatically knock 2 points off your casting stat. Then there's the two negative levels; not fun. Depending on the situation, I'd probably wait for a raise dead.
I think the item's fine. Reincarnate messes with your ability scores. If you were a human wizard who put his racial bonus into Intelligence, coming back will automatically knock 2 points off your casting stat. Then there's the two negative levels; not fun. Depending on the situation, I'd probably wait for a raise dead.
Actually, depending on your reading of this portion of Reincarnate, "Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject's racial adjustments (since it is no longer necessarily of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores." you could logically assume that you keep any racial adjustments that apply to mental stats, and only lose those that apply to physical ones. I am not sure of the board's opinion, but I see it that way. That leaves us with a Wizard that has a bonus to Int and possibly bonuses to all physical stats as well. And yes, the negative levels are steep.
EDIT: I made it easier to differentiate the quoted text
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Aside for the hilarity ensued, Reincarnate can make certain classes unplayable. And totally ruin a character that (story-wise) might have been better off dead (with the option for Raise Dead later on) and remembered as a 'hero', not as the half-elf sorceress that came back in the form of a troglodyte.
For me and my group, it's not exactly what you'd call a useful spell.
Aside for the hilarity ensued, Reincarnate can make certain classes unplayable. And totally ruin a character that (story-wise) might have been better off dead (with the option for Raise Dead later on) and remembered as a 'hero', not as the half-elf sorceress that came back in the form of a troglodyte.
For me and my group, it's not exactly what you'd call a useful spell.
From my understanding, reincarnate can only make certain martial PCs weaker (I am looking at you kobold), not necessarily unplayable. Of course there is always the chance of getting a major buff as well. As far as appearances go, I can think of few better reasons to grab a Hat of Disguise than to appear as you once did.
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Aside for the hilarity ensued, Reincarnate can make certain classes unplayable. And totally ruin a character that (story-wise) might have been better off dead (with the option for Raise Dead later on) and remembered as a 'hero', not as the half-elf sorceress that came back in the form of a troglodyte.
For me and my group, it's not exactly what you'd call a useful spell.
You do realize that there *are* ways to restore your form, right? And that the sorceress would have the same Cha?
Since Miracle requires no material component to do it, you can quest to find that 17th+ level cleric and beg them for a favor. The RAW cost of restoring your form is 1530gp via that route. Assuming your DM isn't a dick, it probably wouldn't be more than 1 or 2 levels in your new form.
In the meantime, disguise spells and items help (as Malfus noted). Use the situation to build some character!
Back to the original topic: As a DM I would welcome the method for keeping my players alive in early levels without needing to break verisimilitude ("Of course you hunted down a 7th level druid in less than a week... *shifty eyes*"). I will bring the fact that this item exists up at my next game, because we may need to make one as a "just in case."
The death at level 1-2 problem is something I solve by giving everyone a single "get out of death free" card that they lose access to once reviving becomes a real option. The earlier it becomes a real option, the better. It's not like death goes unpunished. If they use the "get out of death free" card, then they are punished with the knowledge that they had failed so hard they had to pull a deus ex machina. If they get revived, they are punished financial (and temporarily via the neg levels).
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Throwing 9th lvl spells (even with a grand quest, and especially under lvl 10) makes me cringe.
I can see some "oh look, it's even cheaper than a Raise Dead" - That would be spoiling the players in my opinion.
Finding 17th level clerics around would assume some sort of very high fantasy. If they're around, why not turn it into a quest to get your comrade back the proper way?
Back to the original topic: As a DM I would welcome the method for keeping my players alive in early levels without needing to break verisimilitude ("Of course you hunted down a 7th level druid in less than a week... *shifty eyes*"). I will bring the fact that this item exists up at my next game, because we may need to make one as a "just in case."The death at level 1-2 problem is something I solve by giving everyone a single "get out of death free" card that they lose access to once reviving becomes a real option. The earlier it becomes a real option, the better. It's not like death goes unpunished. If they use the "get out of death free" card, then they are punished with the knowledge that they had failed so hard they had to pull a deus ex machina. If they get revived, they are punished financial (and temporarily via the neg levels).
I can appreciate the GM wanting to make use of such a convenient item, but you don't feel that it is a bit too simple to make for a crafter?
Throwing lvl 9 spells around (even with a grand quest, and especially under lvl 10) makes me cringe.
I can see some "oh look, it's even cheaper than a Raise Dead" - That would be spoiling the players in my opinion.
Finding 17th level clerics around would assume some sort of very high fantasy. If they're around, why not turn it into a quest to get your comrade back the proper way?
My character is an oracle of lore (curing route)that enjoys preparedness above all, and carrying a spare "oh your dead? not anymore!" card is right up his ally. I was curious to see the board's opinion on the balance of the item in question.
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Back to the original topic: As a DM I would welcome the method for keeping my players alive in early levels without needing to break verisimilitude ("Of course you hunted down a 7th level druid in less than a week... *shifty eyes*"). I will bring the fact that this item exists up at my next game, because we may need to make one as a "just in case."The death at level 1-2 problem is something I solve by giving everyone a single "get out of death free" card that they lose access to once reviving becomes a real option. The earlier it becomes a real option, the better. It's not like death goes unpunished. If they use the "get out of death free" card, then they are punished with the knowledge that they had failed so hard they had to pull a deus ex machina. If they get revived, they are punished financial (and temporarily via the neg levels).
I can appreciate the GM wanting to make use of such a convenient item, but you don't feel that it is a bit too simple to make for a crafter?
It does seem to make things a bit too available from a realism standpoint, as something that costs 1600g but puts you into a young adult body would be a sort of immortality for any reasonably wealthy individual.
I would probably up the CL to make it a bit harder (to something like 15th) so that NPCs couldn't generally craft it, so you'd be sitting on a DC 25. I would use the "extra roll" thing as a partial excuse. A 20 int wizard with maxed spellcraft and skill focus could do that at 4th level while taking 10, but the average NPC would need 2-3 more levels even with skill focus, or 5-6 without (except druids who could do it at 7th even with a +0 int mod and without skill focus).
Then I would increase the cost by 1,000gp, because currently the item is cheaper to make than the material components of its spell (which I somehow failed to notice before). This would increase the market price an equal amount as well. I might toss an extra 1,000gp on the market price to represent how difficult it is to make.
BUT, I have no problem with PCs getting access to revival early. Character death sucks even with revival.
It does seem to make things a bit too available from a realism standpoint, as something that costs 1600g but puts you into a young adult body would be a sort of immortality for any reasonably wealthy individual.
I would probably up the CL to make it a bit harder (to something like 15th) so that NPCs couldn't generally craft it, so you'd be sitting on a DC 25. I would use the "extra roll" thing as a partial excuse. A 20 int wizard with maxed spellcraft and skill focus could do that at 4th level while taking 10, but the average NPC would need 2-3 more levels even with skill focus, or 5-6 without (except druids who could do it at 7th even with a +0 int mod and without skill focus).
Then I would increase the cost by 1,000gp, because currently the item is cheaper to make than the material components of its spell (which I somehow failed to notice before). This would increase the market price an equal amount as well. I might toss an extra 1,000gp on the market price to...
So a market value of 3600 with a crafting cost of 2300 would be your preference?
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So a market value of 3600 with a crafting cost of 2300 would be your preference?It does seem to make things a bit too available from a realism standpoint, as something that costs 1600g but puts you into a young adult body would be a sort of immortality for any reasonably wealthy individual.
I would probably up the CL to make it a bit harder (to something like 15th) so that NPCs couldn't generally craft it, so you'd be sitting on a DC 25. I would use the "extra roll" thing as a partial excuse. A 20 int wizard with maxed spellcraft and skill focus could do that at 4th level while taking 10, but the average NPC would need 2-3 more levels even with skill focus, or 5-6 without (except druids who could do it at 7th even with a +0 int mod and without skill focus).
Then I would increase the cost by 1,000gp, because currently the item is cheaper to make than the material components of its spell (which I somehow failed to notice before). This would increase the market price an equal amount as well. I might toss an extra 1,000gp on the market price to...
Something like that.
The main problems are (A) that the CL is too low: You don't make items that can bring you back from the dead have a lower CL than a weapon that attacks a little faster (Speed weapon quality) and (B) the cost is too low, you never EVER make an item that emulates a spell cheaper to make than to cast, because that's just stupid. If anything, it should be at least twice as expensive.
I'm sure their justification for the CL was the casting CL, but by that logic the Belt of Physical Perfection would have a CL of 3, because that's the CL for all of the component spells. There's a reason it's 16 instead. I have no idea what their justification for the cost was, given that the magic item creation rules explicitly state that you always tack material component costs *on top* of any other cost you deem appropriate.
At 3600g (+~2500g for neg level removal) even relatively wealthy people will have to make sure they track their wealth to be able to afford it, and they can still get screwed by coming back as a bugbear or somesuch. According to the core rulebook, a "wealthy" lifestyle costs a total of 60k gp for a period of 50 years (100gp/month). Such a person would have to save 10% of their life-time income to do the reincarnation properly. Not to mention legal costs to avoid the whole "But Joseph Carpenter was a human, you're a dwarf." situation. An extravagant living style could afford this with only 1% of life-time income, but that's still within the "one mistake and you're f~!!ed" range.
3600gp is still cheaper than a raise dead, which seems appropriate.
(Note that the "how often/easily would the wealthy use revive?" thing is another topic entirely.)
Something like that.
The main problems are (A) that the CL is too low: You don't make items that can bring you back from the dead have a lower CL than a weapon that attacks a little faster (Speed weapon quality) and (B) the cost is too low, you never EVER make an item that emulates a spell cheaper to make than to cast, because that's just stupid. If anything, it should be at least twice as expensive.
I'm sure their justification for the CL was the casting CL, but by that logic the Belt of Physical Perfection would have a CL of 3, because that's the CL for all of the component spells. There's a reason it's 16 instead. I have no idea what their justification for the cost was, given that the magic item creation rules explicitly state that you always tack material component costs *on top* of any other cost you deem appropriate.
At 3600g (+~2500g for neg level removal) even relatively wealthy people will...
Thank you for your input, I think I will bring this version to my GM.
As to the CL arguments, speed has a CL 7 and I won't even attempt to figure out why the belts have the CL's that they do.
...hmmm, is this legal in PFS play? ;)