In this thread im trying to understand, what is actually suggested by pathfinder monster book:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/monsters-as-pcs
Written as it is, i think it means the following if someone wants to play an aranea sorceror and the GM allows it:
Starting level not below 4. If starting at 4, player just jumps with the aranea as it is written except for alignment from the next dungeon and joins the party (well maybe taking a bit care, that they do not kill him).
Assuming party level 5, the char has the stats of the aranea:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/aranea
That includes exactly those spells and exactly those stats. (At least nearly, the +4 armor just means that an aranea normally cast 4 mage armor lasting 5 hours during the day, so the char actually has AC 16.)
So stats 11, 17, 14, 14, 13, 16, the feats and skills as listed, BAB +5, 37HP.
He has then the equipment listed with aranea (which is nothing.)
Then he levels from 4 to 5, taking 1 level of sorceror and gaining the amount of gold for getting his starting equipment from 4th to 5th level (meaning just 4500 while his normal race party collegues get 10500).
The 1 level of sorceror doesnt get maximum HP (not his first hit die), but can be his favored class. His spellcasting capabilities change from 5th level to 6th level (5 from aranea, 1 from 1 sorceror), meaning he selects 1 additional 0-level spell and 1 3rd level spell and his daily casts are 7/6/4. Any sorceror abilities, e.g. bloodlines are level 1.
His will save gets a +2 and he gains 1 feat due to gaining effective level 5.
He starts with 15000 XP and needs 23000 to level up and get 2nd sorcerer level.
When he is in the mid between his 6th and 7th level (so when being aranea and sorcerer lev 2) at 29000 XP he gets a further sorcerer level(so now aranea and lev 3 sorc with casting capabilities as lev 8 sorc and this extra miway levels are described in above linked monster as pc rules), but still counts as effective level 6 so no feat.
At 35000 XP he gains another level of sorc and another feat and he can swap a spell from being sorc lev 4.
At 51000 XP he gains another level of sorc and stat increase.
At 63000 XP he gains again and last time a midlevel, making him aranea/lev 6 sorc, with casting capabilities as lev 11 sorc.
At 75000 XP he gains another sorc level and another feat and counts now as level 9 char and is aranea/lev 7 sorc.
(I assume medium XP track and of course he could further multiclass and so on.)
Is it roughly intended that way?
I ask, because the rest of the party will scream hell, if they have the average treat-me-fairer-than-him attitude i know from players.
By giving up 2 sorcerer levels, accepting a mediocre char score (currently being just 17 at lev 9 probably.),accepting some mediocre spell choices for low level spells and accepting a feat selection, he gained +37HP,+5BAB,+3 natural armor, +4 fort and ref, +1 will, decent other stats (especially no dumb stat the GM can exploit), Acrobatics +9 (+17 jump), Climb +14, Escape Artist +8, Knowledge (arcana) +5, Perception +8, Stealth +6, climp speed at will, weak poison bite at will, utility web at will and last and certainly not least +5 casting, spell knowledge and spells per day level.
So it seems the outlined suggestions for monsters as PCs are rather unbalanced. And thats not only with aranea this way, but with practically any even CR monster, if its abilities fit to a desired class. E.g. a minotaur barbarian will in the long run giveup 2 barb levels for 45 HP, + 6 BAB, +2 fort, +5 will and ref, large size (reach!!!), +5 natural armor and a secondary natural attack , which sounds still like a hell of a deal.
Is it roughly intended that way?
Yes, it is roughly intended that way. It might not work that well, but it is just a guideline, the monsters are not intended as PCs. I would use my own judgement, for instance a 1st lvl minotaur might fit enough in a 7th lvl party even though the bestiary would put it in a 5th lvl party and would grant it a faster lvl advancement after that.
minotaur cr 4, (key) level = cr 5, pc wealth = cr 6.. that would be the minimum lvl I would allow it in a party. I'll opt for 7th lvl snce it will have 7HD and a BAB of 7 at that point, similar hp to a 7th lvl fighter and some benefits that the fighter cant hope to compensate with feats or class abilties.
All in all you should use your better judgement and try to stay on the cautious side in allowing monster pcs
carn wrote: So stats 11, 17, 14, 14, 13, 16, the feats and skills as listed, BAB +5, 37HP. Also, keep in mind the stats in the book are assumed to be the average of the race, so making him take those stats would be as if you made a normal human take all 10s and 11s. What would be "expected" is that the stats would be +6 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Int, +2 Wis, +6 Cha but otherwise rolling normally.
Not saying forcing the stats to stay the same is wrong, but they're a matter of convenience for representing the average racial specimen.
Agreed, Steev.
I think the monsters as PCs rules work best with CR 1 and CR2. More than that and it gets really complicated.
I require monster PCs to take 1 level in a PC class and include it with the calculation. That seems to be the best option.
Steev42 wrote: carn wrote: So stats 11, 17, 14, 14, 13, 16, the feats and skills as listed, BAB +5, 37HP. Also, keep in mind the stats in the book are assumed to be the average of the race, so making him take those stats would be as if you made a normal human take all 10s and 11s. What would be "expected" is that the stats would be +6 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Int, +2 Wis, +6 Cha but otherwise rolling normally.
Not saying forcing the stats to stay the same is wrong, but they're a matter of convenience for representing the average racial specimen. Yes, but i am looking for the downside paizo folks had in mind when writing thesse suggestions. Currently i would not see the slightest reasons when the GM allows for monster as PCs for any PC not to take a monster of CR 2, 4, 6 or maybe 8. (Higher CRs do not allow to make full effect of the half level gains, just as CR 1, 3, 5, 7 limits them.)
Edit: You always get something like 3,5,7 or 9 HD for losing 1,2,3 or 4 class levels. Its hard for that not to be a good deal.
Only problemwould be, whehter its too ugly and will increase the chances for mob with pitchforks encounter drastically. But there are lot of creatures (especially shape changing aranea), that could approach a village without directly being attacked. And when thinking about high CHA classes it doesnt matter anyway.
darth_borehd wrote: I require monster PCs to take 1 level in a PC class and include it with the calculation. That seems to be the best option. So all PCs Bugbears, Skinstealers, Azers (depending upon whether that flaming effect can be switched of), Boggards, Imps, Quasits, Nuglubs, Sinspawns, Skums or Snapjaw Homunculus?
Some of that might make interaction harder, but as long as a skinstealer is in the party (and there will be one, +2 str, +6 dex, +2 con, +6 int, + 6 cha, 4 hit die for losing 1 level.), you have a party face (which actually can change faces to whatever humanoids you have so far slain in non too messy fashion). And fast healing 2 of quasit and imp are an awesome advantage for just 1 level lost in the long run.
Edit: Ok drop homunculus, constructs cannot be resurrected, thats bad.
Funny fromtome of horrors:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/monstrous-humanoids/mongr elman-TOHC
Going by the suggestion one could start out as lev 2 mongrelman with darkvision, +2 perception and 1 arm additional + 10 str. And race stats are +4 str, + 2 dex,, + 2 con, +2 wis, - 4 cha.
Would look like human with 1 ogre arm.
And at level 4.5 it would be a mongrelman level 3 tower shield fighter (what else, no one ignores a fighter with +14 racial str for his one handed weapon attacks).
carn wrote: Edit: You always get something like 3,5,7 or 9 HD for losing 1,2,3 or 4 class levels. Its hard for that not to be a good deal.
Only problemwould be, whehter its too ugly and will increase the chances for mob with pitchforks encounter drastically. But there are lot of creatures (especially shape changing aranea), that could approach a village without directly being attacked. And when thinking about high CHA classes it doesnt matter anyway.
It depends on the monster's abilities. For me the minotaur isn't that scary since it's basically a burly warrior NPC. The aforementioned aranea might be something I look at a bit more since it has stacking caster levels but even then you'll still be losing some progress as things move forward as well as other class features.
Those class features lost (or extremely delayed) can have significant impact on how things progress... or they may be nothing depending on the monster used and what class he is matched up with.
Personally I have been using the rules that were put out for making races to allow the 'simple' things like satyrs, minotaurs, harpies, and the like without having to worry so much over the CR stuff.
Abraham spalding wrote:
Those class features lost (or extremely delayed) can have significant impact on how things progress... or they may be nothing depending on the monster used and what class he is matched up with.
Which are these?
Ok, the lev 20 stuff normally is very good. But the rest?
It dedpends a bit on whether the stats are taken as written or whether they are just assumed to be averages upon which you add 15 point buys or so. But in the latter case, the monster PC will always be better if the monster fits with the class needs.
E.g. compare a lev 6 barb minotaur with a lev 8 human barb. + 8 str, +5 natural armor, + 20 hp will more than outweigh the 1 DR more.
carn wrote: Which are these?
Ok, the lev 20 stuff normally is very good. But the rest?
It dedpends a bit on whether the stats are taken as written or whether they are just assumed to be averages upon which you add 15 point buys or so. But in the latter case, the monster PC will always be better if the monster fits with the class needs.
E.g. compare a lev 6 barb minotaur with a lev 8 human barb. + 8 str, +5 natural armor, + 20 hp will more than outweigh the 1 DR more.
Well yeah that's kind of what I said.
The minotaur isn't going to be level 6 when the party is level 8. He's level 4 (level 1 at level 5 level 2 at level 6 level 4 at level 7 and level 5 at the start of level 8) starting so by level 8 he'll have 4 levels of barbarian total.
So he's lost 8 rounds of rage (16 if he was a half orc instead), 2 rage powers, and improved uncanny dodge, in return he gains 2 extra hit dice and natural cunning, +5 natural armor, large size and powerful charge perks. He has 5 feats compared to the human/half orc barbarian's 4.
Natural cunning we can ignore as basically being useless at this (or indeed most) level especially since he was getting uncanny dodge anyway. The +5 natural armor is nice, but then it's not like it's something that is going to break anything. His biggest thing (pun intended) is the large size and there are going to be places that's not such a big thing either.
IF we were to adjust his stats instead of just using what's provided he has a +8 strength +4 Con -4 Int -2 Cha.
But then again he's also going to completely miss a level adjustment later too as well as only get to level 18.
Is it worth it? Maybe -- but for many people it won't be.
Of course this is just the minotaur other monsters have different abilities and will sync up better or worse at their given CR.
Please note I'm not saying the guidelines are perfect (they most certainly are not) just that it isn't all benefits for the monster race.
Abraham spalding wrote:
The minotaur isn't going to be level 6 when the party is level 8. He's level 4 (level 1 at level 5 level 2 at level 6 level 4 at level 7 and level 5 at the start of level 8) starting so by level 8 he'll have 4 levels of barbarian total.
Ok, i made a mistake. But you as well, in the lev 8 party the mino will be a level 5 barb.
So he has 3 extra HD, loses 4 rounds of rage or 10 vs half org (he gets 2 more rages from con). And large size rocks.
Dont think this can be madeup by 2 rage powers.
carn wrote: And large size rocks. Sure does -- right up until it's a 5x5 hallway or smaller, or the cave is only 7 feet tall, or you are being hit with touch attacks, or you want to sneak somewhere, or you want to buy armor or weapons...
but yeah other than all those times (and probably some more) it is awesome... if you want to be in melee, otherwise it really doesn't matter.
Abraham spalding wrote: carn wrote: And large size rocks. Sure does -- right up until it's a 5x5 hallway or smaller, or the cave is only 7 feet tall, or you are being hit with touch attacks, or you want to sneak somewhere, or you want to buy armor or weapons...
but yeah other than all those times (and probably some more) it is awesome... if you want to be in melee, otherwise it really doesn't matter. Well, then take a faceless stalker:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/faceless-stal ker
str 18, dex 17, str 18, int 13, wis 15, cha 16.
Even without point buy it looks nice for any martial class. And one has reach 10 anyway and looks as a normal human all the time. At level 5 and 6 it will be slightly worse, but afterwards one is nearly always better of.
Or can you suggest a level between 7 and 19 upwards where a faceless stalker/pick any combat class is worse than any pure combat class?
Lets compare faceless stalker lev 1 barb with lev5 barb. Equipment money for both same (rules say multiclassing from the monster to the class, in normal multiclassing something nfor 4 levels then switch equipment money would be same)
faceless stalker barb lev1:
Faceless Stalker (Ugothol) barb lev 1
CG Medium aberration (shapechanger) barb lev 1
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +7
DEFENSE
AC 26, touch 13, flat-footed 14 (+3 Dex, +4 +1 natural, +7 armor,+1 deflection) (24)
AC alternative 25, touch 13, flat-footed 14 (+3 Dex, +4, +7 armor,+1 deflection) (23)
hp 54 (5d8+1d12+25) (66)
Fort +8 (10), Ref +5, Will +7 (9)
DR 5/piercing or slashing
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft. with armor 30ft
Melee +1 nodachi +9 (1d10+7/18–20) (+10 1d10+13 power+rage)
alternative Melee 2 slams and grab +9 (1d6+5/20) (+10 1d6+9 power+rage)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks blood drain (1 Con), sneak attack +2d6
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 5th; concentration +8)
Constant—tongues
STATISTICS
Str 18 (22), Dex 17, Con 18 (22), Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 16
Base Atk +4; CMB +8 (+12 grapple); CMD 21
Feats Combat Reflexes, Deceitful, Improved Initiative, Power Attack
Skills Bluff +10, Disguise +14 (+25 when using change shape), Escape Artist +19, Sleight of Hand +8, Stealth +11, Perception +6, Survival +6, Intimidate +7, Swim +8, Climb +8 Racial Modifier +4 Disguise, +8 Escape Artist Languages Aquan, Common; tongues
SQ change shape (Medium humanoid, alter self), compression, faceless, rage 8 (10) rds/day
Equipment
Breastplate agile +1 (1550gp), Nodachi +1 (2360gp), Cloak of protection +1 (1000), Ring of protection +1(2000), amulet of natural armor +1 (2000), 1500 gp for stuff like clothes horse and liquid food.
Compared to lev 5 barb probably lacking perception, but more hp and more armor. And reach 10. Depending on interpretation an unarmed faceless has 2 slams with grab, that would be better than nodachi.
Edit:
fascestalker has 2 slams, otherwise he could not have 1 logsword and 1 slam attack. So
New equipment
Breastplate agile +1 (1550gp), Cloak of protection +1 (1000), Ring of protection +1(2000), amulet of mighty fists (5000), 850 gp for stuff like clothes horse and liquid food.
I think the grapple version is stronger until higher levels additional attacks are avaible with weapons and amulet of might fists sucks due to price.
I've run a monster campaign under the PF rules, and the 3.5 LA rules. Of the two, the PF rules actually work much better, with one caveat. That caveat is, that it works well for any creature CR 3 or less. It can work for CR 4's. But CR 5 or higher tends to be a crapshoot. Some CR 8 monsters just are too underpowered for the CR as PCs, and some level 6's are way overpowered as PCs.
Back to the OP's question, here's how it works with examples. I'm going to use a Minotaur (CR 4) since it's one of the CR 4 creatures that can work.
Setup :
Determine monster ability mods. Since a Minotaur in the book has no class levels, it uses the average monster array of 11,11,11,10,10,10. So the racial adjustments are STR (+8), CON (+4), INT (-4), CHA (-2). To find this, you subtract 10 or 11 from the stat (10 from even, 11 from odd) and that's the mod. This doesn't apply to monsters with class levels, but those are already usually given their stat bonuses in the 'as characters' call out.
Determine your stats as normal (roll or point buy) and apply the racial mods for the monster. The monster character has the same type as the monster, and gains any special senses or abilities that aren't feats. So the Minotaur gains Darkvision (60ft), +5 Natural Armor, Large Size (including reach), Powerful Charge, and Natural Cunning. It also get's all the creature's natural attacks, which in this case is Gore (1d4).
Determine hit points. Monsters NEVER get max hit die for HP dice, so he get's 6d10 + Con Mod. He also get's 4+INT Mod skill points (min 1) per racial hit die. His 'class skills' for being a monstrous humanoid are Climb, Craft, Fly, Intimidate, Perception, Ride, Stealth, Survival, and Swim.
Proficiencies - As a monstrous humanoid, he's proficient with all simple weapons. He also gains a racial proficiency with Greataxe's, but no armor or shield proficiencies.
Feats - He starts with 3 feats (1 for first hit die, 1 for 3rd, and 1 for 5th).
So, fill out stats and skills and buy equipment (he get's starting funds as if he were a 4th level character, being CR 4), and he's ready to plop into a 4th level party.
Advancement
Once we're ready to add a class level, things get more interesting. Let's say he's going fighter (which fit's him well). He gains all the normal first level fighter benefits (fighter feat, proficiencies, etc). He gains another feat (7th hit die). He also gains 10hp + con mod (you always max the 1st class level hit die a character gets).
When we add his second class level (party level 6, hit die 8 for him), we just get the normal fighter benefits for 2nd level, and roll hit die.
However, halfway between 2nd and 3rd class level, we gain an ADDITIONAL class level. This is meant to balance out the fact that as we go higher in level, the CR is worth less benefit. You do this up to 1/2 the CR (Round down). So we'd do it twice. Here's what the level by level hit die/CL looks like for our Minotaur. CR = Creature Rating, HD = Hit Die, CL = Class Level, and PL = Party level
4.0 : CR 4, 6 HD, 0 CL, 4 PL
5.0 : CR 4, 6 HD, 1 CL, 5 PL
6.0 : CR 4, 6 HD, 2 CL, 6 PL
6.5 : CR 3, 6 HD, 3 CL, 6 PL
7.0 : CR 3, 6 HD, 4 CL, 7 PL
8.0 : CR 3, 6 HD, 5 CL, 8 PL
9.0 : CR 3, 6 HD, 6 CL, 9 PL
9.5 : CR 2, 6 HD, 7 CL, 9 PL
10.0: CR 2, 6 HD, 8 CL,10 PL
...
20.0: CR 2, 6 HD,18 CL,20 PL
8.0 : CR 3,
The one rough spot I've found in MDT's analysis are the CR 1 creatures. Rounding down gives them no CR adjustment, with quite a bit of extra stuff. Depending on what exactly that CR 1 creature gives, charging them a trait, a feat, or giving them a lower point buy are all possible solutions.
kyrt-ryder wrote: The one rough spot I've found in MDT's analysis are the CR 1 creatures. Rounding down gives them no CR adjustment, with quite a bit of extra stuff. Depending on what exactly that CR 1 creature gives, charging them a trait, a feat, or giving them a lower point buy are all possible solutions. Actually, I said round down on how many times you can reduce the CR. So a CR 1 creature can be reduced 1 / 2 = 0.5 = 0 times. So they'd always be one level behind.
EDIT : I probably didn't make that clear enough though originally. Sorry about that.
mdt wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: The one rough spot I've found in MDT's analysis are the CR 1 creatures. Rounding down gives them no CR adjustment, with quite a bit of extra stuff. Depending on what exactly that CR 1 creature gives, charging them a trait, a feat, or giving them a lower point buy are all possible solutions. Actually, I said round down on how many times you can reduce the CR. So a CR 1 creature can be reduced 1 / 2 = 0.5 = 0 times. So they'd always be one level behind. Oh wups, I must have misread that initially. I've actually been houseruling it that way anyway xD (though it does tend to inspire people who want a CR 1 race to grab a +1 CR template to be on par with the CR 2's who get their reduction.)
kyrt-ryder wrote: mdt wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: The one rough spot I've found in MDT's analysis are the CR 1 creatures. Rounding down gives them no CR adjustment, with quite a bit of extra stuff. Depending on what exactly that CR 1 creature gives, charging them a trait, a feat, or giving them a lower point buy are all possible solutions. Actually, I said round down on how many times you can reduce the CR. So a CR 1 creature can be reduced 1 / 2 = 0.5 = 0 times. So they'd always be one level behind. Oh wups, I must have misread that initially. I've actually been houseruling it that way anyway xD (though it does tend to inspire people who want a CR 1 race to grab a +1 CR template to be on par with the CR 2's who get their reduction.) NP, I probably didn't do a good job of differentiating. I tend to round up or down based on the race, honestly. Drow Noble, for example, I dont' let reduce. A troglodyte I let reduce to 0 CR.
Thanks for the explaining mdt.
When does he get stats increases and feats?
Because that way you calculate XP needed from CR + levels, but feats from hit die.
The problem is, this way monsters look way overpowered.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/advice/canALev4Barb15PointBuyBeatThisOneOnOne
A miotaur just applying point buy beats the crap out of a level 4 barb. If the feats can be rearranged, equipment bought and the skills rearranged he will be better than a barb, while the barb is raging.
I do not see how this can ever change with gaining 2 additional levels at 6.5 and 9.5. And this will always be the case, if the monster roughly fits to the class. E.g. above faceless would get further stat improve from 15 point buy and he is already better than a level 5 barb.
The only where it realy hurts are casters, but there are even monsters with caster levels, so... optimizing will mean picking a monstern CR 2,4 or 6 if there is one fitting roughly to ones needs.
In a single encounter it's possible the Minotaur will beat the Barbarian due to higher raw stats.
HOWEVER, over the course of an adventuring day, that Minotaur will really only have enough rage for one big encounter, and he won't have any rage powers.
The barbarian will have at least enough rage for two encounters, and will have two rage powers. If he's an Invulnerable Rager, he will also have DR 2/-
kyrt-ryder wrote: In a single encounter it's possible the Minotaur will beat the Barbarian due to higher raw stats.
HOWEVER, over the course of an adventuring day, that Minotaur will really only have enough rage for one big encounter, and he won't have any rage powers.
The barbarian will have at least enough rage for two encounters, and will have two rage powers. If he's an Invulnerable Rager, he will also have DR 2/-
The minotaur has at PL 4 no class levels. He does not rage. He is more powerful without rage than the pure barb.
I think for every monster that is CR2, CR4 or CR6 one can find a class in which the monster/class mix will be always better than the pure class on levels from CR to lev 19. (Lev 20 depending a bit on class)
For some classes there might be no monster race (e.g. i do not know anything that has wizard caster levels, so maybe wizard is of.)
Edit:
Forgot to add, thats that only true for monsters with a land or fly speed and 2 arms. Other stuff might be too useless for everyday things.
Hey Carn,
Yeah, you calculate the Feats based on hit dice, you calculate XP based on the CR of whatever he's fighting. If you meant XP needed to level, then the XP needed to level is based on his Party Level. So, a Minotaur starts at CR 4 = PL 4, so he starts with whatever XP he needs to be a 4th level character (depending on which XP chart you're using).
As to 'more powerful', it depends on your deffinition of more powerful. If you mean straight 'I hit things' then yeah, the Mino will be more powerful than a human Barb or a human fighter. However, he's not if you look at more than just 'i hit things hard'.
4th level human barb
Feats : 3
Rage Rounds : 6 + Con Mod
Movement : 40 ft
Uncanny Dodge, Trap sense
HP : 12 + 3d12 + 4xCon Mod (Avg 32 + 4xCon Mod)
1 Rage Power
Mino
Feats : 3
Movement : 30
Gore and Powerful Charge
HP : 6d10 + 6xCon Mod (Avg 33 + 6xCon Mod)
The Mino will have a higher strength, but a much lower AC (he has no armor prof, and he's got penalties for being large). The Barb will have no problems with most dungeons, caves, cities, etc. The Mino is going to be squeezing a LOT, which further reduces his AC.
As the Mino goes up in level, he gains some of the benefits the Barb has, but he's always behind. He's better at raw damage, but not nearly as flexible as the human barbarian.
4th level human Barbarian actually has 2 rage powers MDT, so that's one more thing in his favor.
kyrt-ryder wrote: 4th level human Barbarian actually has 2 rage powers MDT, so that's one more thing in his favor. Good catch, so yeah, he's got a lot more flexibility.
mdt wrote: Hey Carn,
Yeah, you calculate the Feats based on hit dice, you calculate XP based on the CR of whatever he's fighting. If you meant XP needed to level, then the XP needed to level is based on his Party Level. So, a Minotaur starts at CR 4 = PL 4, so he starts with whatever XP he needs to be a 4th level character (depending on which XP chart you're using).
The question is, what number do you use for which column in the character advancement table?
For XP necessary the CR of the minotaur is relevant.
For feats you seem to use the minotaur hit dice
For stats its the minotaur hit dice or CR?
This is relevant for whether the minotaur gains a stat after 2 or after 4 class levels.
mdt wrote:
As to 'more powerful', it depends on your deffinition of more powerful. If you mean straight 'I hit things' then yeah, the Mino will be more powerful than a human Barb or a human fighter. However, he's not if you look at more than just 'i hit things hard'.
Obviously it depends on char purpose, if the barb is also the party face, then mino is bad. But the normal main purpose of a barb is to hit things hard. So never wrong to have mino.
mdt wrote:
4th level human barb
Feats : 3
Rage Rounds : 6 + Con Mod
Movement : 40 ft
Uncanny Dodge, Trap sense
HP : 12 + 3d12 + 4xCon Mod (Avg 32 + 4xCon Mod)
1 Rage Power
Mino
Feats : 3
Movement : 30
Gore and Powerful Charge
HP : 6d10 + 6xCon Mod (Avg 33 + 6xCon Mod)
The Mino will have a higher strength, but a much lower AC (he has no armor prof, and he's got penalties for being large). The Barb will have no problems with most dungeons, caves, cities, etc. The Mino is going to be squeezing a LOT, which further reduces his AC.
I am always considering Paizo APs as the standard and in these i do not find much if any squezzing. GMG even suggest that hallways should be 10 ft, so its not 1 on 1 fights. Furthermore most dungeons have large foes, so the dungeaon must be large otherwise the foes will not be there. So unless the GM is deliberatly nasty no problem there.
And regarding cities, i mentioned that caveat. But most cities tolerate some orcs, goblins and kobolds. So if the minotaur is well behaved no problem there, especially if he sets out to clear the local evil monster dungeon. Unless the GM deliberatly does something about it. But the same problem arises with the standard party containing 3 CHA 7 members.
Items arent a problem either, because rules state that items beneath certain price are available in cities and large items are not much more expensive.
So assuming a GM, who does not intend to adjust game to offset the mino advantage, the mino will be better.
And forget rage, when you have more dam non-raging than the barb raging, then the barb raging does not offset anything.
mdt wrote:
As the Mino goes up in level, he gains some of the benefits the Barb has, but he's always behind. He's better at raw damage, but not nearly as flexible as the human barbarian.
Could you name something the mino will miss?
And regarding the stats the mino will be better, here mino PC stats:
CE Large monstrous humanoid
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +11
DEFENSEAC 21, touch 13, flat-footed 21 (+5 natural,+2 dex, –1 size, +3 armor, + 1 deflection, + 1 dodge)
hp 63 (6d10+30)
Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +6
Defensive Abilities natural cunning
OFFENSESpeed 30 ft.
Melee +1 greataxe +12/+7 (3d6+9/×3) and gore +6 (1d6+3)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks powerful charge (gore +13, 2d6+9)
STATISTICSStr 22, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 6
Base Atk +6; CMB +12; CMD 24
Feats Toughness, Dogde, Power Attack (here im lazy, dont want to spend time upon selecting most optimal feats)
Skills Intimidate +6, Perception +11, Stealth +6, Survival +11; Racial Modifiers +4 Perception, +4 Survival
Equip:
+1 greataxe, +1 ring of protection, +1 cloak, mwk studded leather (has no armor check penalty, so no problem with not proficient) 1500 GP left or so saving for next level armor.
As the raging human barb will be weaker, his rage and rage power are no advantages. He will have less armor. So the advantage of the human barb will be 10 ft more move(which will vanish in exactly 1 level) and more skills (but less high value in primary skill perception). Is barb a skill monkey?
All other advantages the human has are GM and storyline dependent.
And if not mino, then faceless stalker or degenerate seerpentfolk.
They both do not have size problems and less social problems.
And if not them, one will find a monster, which will be better, if the campaing constraints and char requirements are defined.
I'm not saying they necessarily DO make up the difference, but two rage powers can improve the barbarian quite a bit. There are definitely some good ones in there Carn.
kyrt-ryder wrote: I'm not saying they necessarily DO make up the difference, but two rage powers can improve the barbarian quite a bit. There are definitely some good ones in there Carn. Is there any rage power, which are in their purpose as good as permanent + 2 natural armor? (Thats roughly what the rage power would have to offset.)
I think i understand now, what irritates me at the monster as PC suggestions:
The monsters CR is equivalent to chracter level -2.
Assume you make a normal NPC single barb encounter level 4. You could build a barb level 5 with NPC equipment. Or a lev 4 barb with PC equipment. Or a lev 6 barb with minimal equipement.
So a creature without PC equipment has 2 CR less than a creature with PC equipment.
Nearly all monsters lack equipment. So nearly all monsters are 2 CR lower than they would be, if they had PC equipment.
Therefore a player monster in a party with APL equal to monster CR will be more powerful than the rest of party, since with equipment his monster will actually be 2 CR higher. So if the monster abilities fit with his party role, his effective level will be APL+2.
As the monster will seldom exactly fit party role, thats somehow lessened, but not much.
And later on when his monster abilities might fade out, he gets enough free hit die to offset it and stay ahead of party members.
And thats in case he doesnt have some crazy advantage like permanent regeneration, fast healing, immunities or DR 5/-.
I actually haven't seen anywhere that it is explicitly noted that monster PC's use the monster's ability modifiers ontop of point buy, as opposed to simply taking what's listed there in the statblock.
Would that change your opinion Carn?
kyrt-ryder wrote: I actually haven't seen anywhere that it is explicitly noted that monster PC's use the monster's ability modifiers ontop of point buy, as opposed to simply taking what's listed there in the statblock.
Would that change your opinion Carn?
Somewhat, but mdt suggested, that it is meant to use point buy:
"Determine monster ability mods. Since a Minotaur in the book has no class levels, it uses the average monster array of 11,11,11,10,10,10. So the racial adjustments are STR (+8), CON (+4), INT (-4), CHA (-2). To find this, you subtract 10 or 11 from the stat (10 from even, 11 from odd) and that's the mod. This doesn't apply to monsters with class levels, but those are already usually given their stat bonuses in the 'as characters' call out.
Determine your stats as normal (roll or point buy) and apply the racial mods for the monster."
Not using point buy would reduce the useable monsters a lot, because one would have to live with that stats as they are and would lose 1 stat increase (for CR 4 and 6 monsters). And especially the primary stat would often be higher for normal chars. E.g. the aranea has cha 16, while normal sorcs have at lev 4 19 or 21.
I dont see how you can defend that the minotaur isnt much stronger than the human barbarian.
It will eventually be 2 levels lower, meaning 1 less rage power, the minotaur will still have 2 more feats a higher attack bonus because of higher strength and +4 BAB (-1 size), deals more damage, has reach, has +5 AC (-1 size), natural cunning (more useful when selecting archetypes), a natural attack (in addition topotentially more attacks because of BAB early on), considerably more HP, better saves ending up with +1 Fort, +5 Ref and +5 Will taking ability modifiers into account, darkvision and a bonus on cdm/cmb and higher maximum skill ranks and +4 on perception and survival, more class skills.
It has less skill ranks, losing 3 per level compared to the human, though having 4 extra HD makes up for that a bit too, the racial HD are pretty decent for skill points.
Ofcourse looking at CR the minotaur ends up with a CR of 2 higher than the human barbarian considering NPC wealth, as a PC it will have a bit more. There is nothing really balanced about this, it might be questionable wether it is worth +2 CR, but for sure it is more powerful.
I'm more than willing to admit the Mino is at the edge of 'it can work'. Nobody has said that the mino isn't the better combat brawler. Only that he has less flexibility, and he won't unduly overpower your game. I have a half-orc barbarian in my current game who has a 22 str before raging (20 str + belt + 2) so he'd be right up there with the mino for the fights (whichis all that's important).
Also, as stated above, CR 4 is the borderline, things can get wonky at CR 4, CR 5 and above things get really wonky.
Below CR 4, you shouldn't have a problem at all using the supplied rules.
Carn, as to your question about stat boosts, those are supposed to go off of hit die as well, so there's a +1 in there somewhere for the Mino. However, they don't appear to actually give those to the monsters, since the Mino has 3 stats based of 10 (Dex, Wis, Cha) and 3 based off 11 (Str, Con, Int). Sometimes they do, and sometimes they don't. In this case, it's the first book put out and they didn't. I've noticed the BII is much better about stat boosts.
mdt wrote:
Below CR 4, you shouldn't have a problem at all using the supplied rules.
Azata, Lyrakien as a crossbow bard or sorc?
(On level 2 one can use a light crossbow with deadly aim for d3+2 dam and +10 to hit)
Low str does not matter, low armor doesnt either due to high dex and fly, constant freedom of movement and +10 cha should be worth 1 level less.
Skinstealer is awesome for rogue or ninja, 1d6 sneak for 1 level, great stats, great skill bonuses, 4 hit die and can disguise himself as any small, medium or large humanoid.
Bugbear for any meele, 1 level less for +4 str, +2 dex, +2 con, 3 natural armor, k not that impressive but for 1 level a deal.
And lots of CR1 folks interesting if advanced creature template can be applied, so the are CR2. Lizard folk would then rock, +7 natural armor, + 4 str, +4 dex, +6 con.
Meaning im sceptical that monsters are not a general better deal anyway, just the selection gets smaler with CR2 only.
I think the problem is the following, 1 CR is roughly as good as +2 4 all stats and +2 natural armor (advanced creature template).
When you play a monster with CR2 you effectively gain the power equivalent of + 8 all stats and +4 nat armor, but in the long run you give up only 1 level for it.
Is there a class and playstyle for which -1 level but +8 all stats and +4 nat armor would not be a good deal?
If there is none, then the only question left is whether there are monsters fitting to class and playstyle with their specific advantages.
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