I've been reading my copy of Libris Mortis, and something it says intrigues me. It mentions in a section on mummies that, of all the undead, they are the most likely to have a good alignment. I like the idea of this. I want to play a mummy fighter with a good alignment. By the Libris Mortis rules, this is plausible.
However, here's where I run into an issue. Libris Mortis also offers a mummy base class with 13 levels. The mummy challenge rating is 5 in both 3.5 and Pathfinder. The level adjustment for the mummy template Libris Mortis offers is 4.
I don't get it. If the LA is four, shouldn't the base class have four levels? What about the challenge rating? How does that sync with the LA? Why does the base class have so many levels?
I obviously do not understand how LA and CR work for monster characters at all. Would you guys please explain it to me?
I've been reading my copy of Libris Mortis, and something it says intrigues me. It mentions in a section on mummies that, of all the undead, they are the most likely to have a good alignment. I like the idea of this. I want to play a mummy fighter with a good alignment. By the Libris Mortis rules, this is plausible.
However, here's where I run into an issue. Libris Mortis also offers a mummy base class with 13 levels. The mummy challenge rating is 5 in both 3.5 and Pathfinder. The level adjustment for the mummy template Libris Mortis offers is 4.
I don't get it. If the LA is four, shouldn't the base class have four levels? What about the challenge rating? How does that sync with the LA? Why does the base class have so many levels?
I obviously do not understand how LA and CR work for monster characters at all. Would you guys please explain it to me?
There is no LA in Pathfinder because it is not an exact science, and the value of a monster changes at different levels.
In 3.5 the LA added to player's level. CR has nothing to do with LA.
If you have 3 class levels, and the monster has an LA of +4 then your affective character level is 7.
For monsters you have to go by which classes synergize with that monsters.
Example:
A giant is a good fighter, but its low mental scores don't make for a good casters.
A giant that is a CR7 that gets one level of the fighter class is now a CR 8, but it would take 2 levels of a casting class to move it up to a CR 8.
I've been reading my copy of Libris Mortis, and something it says intrigues me. It mentions in a section on mummies that, of all the undead, they are the most likely to have a good alignment. I like the idea of this. I want to play a mummy fighter with a good alignment. By the Libris Mortis rules, this is plausible.
However, here's where I run into an issue. Libris Mortis also offers a mummy base class with 13 levels. The mummy challenge rating is 5 in both 3.5 and Pathfinder. The level adjustment for the mummy template Libris Mortis offers is 4.
I don't get it. If the LA is four, shouldn't the base class have four levels? What about the challenge rating? How does that sync with the LA? Why does the base class have so many levels?
I obviously do not understand how LA and CR work for monster characters at all. Would you guys please explain it to me?
There is no LA in Pathfinder because it is not an exact science, and the value of a monster changes at different levels.
In 3.5 the LA added to player's level. CR has nothing to do with LA.
If you have 3 class levels, and the monster has an LA of +4 then your affective character level is 7.
For monsters you have to go by which classes synergize with that monsters.
Well, let's say I have a mummy with 3 levels of fighter. What is the effective character level in Pathfinder? Does it increase by one with every level of fighter I take, or does the adjustment for being a mummy drop with level as it's powers become less useful?
Well, let's say I have a mummy with 3 levels of fighter. What is the effective character level in Pathfinder? Does it increase by one with every level of fighter I take, or does the adjustment for being a mummy drop with level as it's powers become less useful?
Officially the LA never changes which is why it is not an exact science because different abilities stay useful longer than others even if two monsters have the same CR.
Pathfinder developers suggest using a monster's CR as its LA if you wish to do so, but they also insist on everyone playing monsters since keeping normal characters and monsters balanced is hard to do.
When a monster is used as a PC the class levels always increase whether they synergize well or not, so a mummy with 1 class level, no matter what the class is, will be considered a level 6 character.
Monsters as PCsUsing one of the monsters presented in this book as a character can be very rewarding, but weighing such a character against others is challenging. Monsters are not designed with the rules for players in mind, and as such can be very unbalancing if not handled carefully.
There are a number of monsters in this book that do not possess racial Hit Dice. Such creatures are the best options for player characters, but a few of them are so powerful that they count as having 1 class level, even without a racial Hit Die. Such characters should only be allowed in a group that is 2nd-level or higher.
For monsters with racial Hit Dice, the best way to allow monster PCs is to pick a CR and allow all of the players to make characters using monsters of that CR. Treat the monster's CR as its total class levels and allow the characters to multiclass into the core classes. Do not advance such monsters by adding Hit Dice. Monster PCs should only advance through classes.
Thanks. That clears things up.
Why did the mods move this here? I'm discussing how to play a mummy in Pathfinder based off of rules I read in a 3.5 book, not how to play a mummy in 3.5.
LA and CR don't exist in Pathfinder. It was mostly the way your request was worded.
Libris Mortis also offers a mummy base class with 13 levels.
Just to clarify this one point:
The Mummy base class is based off the regular Mummy in the Monster Manual, which has an LA of +5 and 8 Racial HD. Due to the way the LA-system worked in 3.5, that means the Mummy wouldn't get a regular class level until its 14th level, since the first 13 were taken up by the 5 points of LA and the 8 Racial HD.
Yeah, you all are forgetting to mention 3.5's ECL.
ECL was Effective Character Level.
Effective Character Level was used to determine the equivalency of the monster's power. To determine ECL, you added the monster's hitdice and the monster's level adjustment.
This is what Are is saying, basically. The ECL of the mummy is 13. That's 8 racial hitdice and 5 level adjustment.
So the mummy's class breakdown is 13 as well, to reflect all 13 levels of the ECL. That's also why the mummy only gets hitdice and skillpoints at some skill levels, instead of all of them, because it ends up having the 8 racial hitdice at level 13.
You may want to consider talking to your GM at length to work out an alternative to the mummy class.
If you just want to play a non-evil sentient undead, you might also consider the necropolitan from Libris Mortis. It's much weaker as a race, but also has a much lower entry free to play, so to speak. Basically, necropolitans trade one class level for their necropolitan race, which grants them the Undead type. When a character goes through cruximigration, the ritual that makes them a necropolitan, they lose one level that can never be regained.
Note also that undead in Pathfinder have d8 racial hitdice and use their Charisma modifier for bonus hitpoints, instead of the d12 racial hitdice they had in 3.5e. This is relevant if you're eyeballing the mummy's d12 hitdice in Libris Mortis.
I've decided, after an absolutely horrid campaign came to a rather dramatic end, to break off from active RPing for a while and work on building some stuff. I'm still making this mummy, but as an NPC that'll be archived with a bunch of other NPCs I'm making for future use.
My understanding is that in Pathfinder I just add racial HD and class levels to get ECL. So, if this character has 2 fighter levels, the ECL in Pathfinder terms should be 10, correct? What about Challenge Rating?
My understanding is that in Pathfinder I just add racial HD and class levels to get ECL. So, if this character has 2 fighter levels, the ECL in Pathfinder terms should be 10, correct? What about Challenge Rating?
In Pathfinder, Racial HD isn't used at all for this type of calculation. Class levels are added to the monster's CR to find the appropriate level to start the character as a PC (subject to DM-approval and eye-balling).
If the character is an NPC, it works slightly differently:
- If the class levels you add are associated (ie, directly enhance the monster's abilities) then each class level adds 1 point of CR.
- If the class levels are non-associated, then each class level adds 1/2 point of CR until you have added the same amount of class levels as the creature's original CR. After that future levels in the same class count as associated.
My understanding is that in Pathfinder I just add racial HD and class levels to get ECL. So, if this character has 2 fighter levels, the ECL in Pathfinder terms should be 10, correct? What about Challenge Rating?In Pathfinder, Racial HD isn't used at all for this type of calculation. Class levels are added to the monster's CR to find the appropriate level to start the character as a PC (subject to DM-approval and eye-balling).
If the character is an NPC, it works slightly differently:
- If the class levels you add are associated (ie, directly enhance the monster's abilities) then each class level adds 1 point of CR.
- If the class levels are non-associated, then each class level adds 1/2 point of CR until you have added the same amount of class levels as the creature's original CR. After that future levels in the same class count as associated.
So the ECL of a mummy fighter 2 is 7, as is the CR (as fighter is associated)?
ECL is a 3.5e term, and only used to determine what is appropriate for player characters. ECL isn't in Pathfinder, and is only used in 3.5e where it concerns players playing the race.
In 3.5e, the term for an encounter's difficulty is EL (Encounter Level). I think you may be confusing ECL and EL right now. Neither is used in Pathfinder.
In Pathfinder the term for an encounter's difficulty is CR (Challenge Rating), which is the same as the term for a single monster's difficulty.
If you're trying to determine a creature's difficulty for the party to face, that's CR.
Are explains how to calculate the monster's CR in his post above.
Just to sum up.
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In 3.5
Level Adjustment(LA) = a number of "empty" levels that is needed to balance a character with other characters.
Effective Character Level(ECL) = Racial Hit Dice + Class Hit Dice + Level Adjustment(LA)
ECL is used appropriate party level, amount of experience points (xp) needed to reach the next character level, amount of appropriate wealth
Total Hit Dice (HD) = Racial HD + Class HD
Total HD is used to determine hit points, skill points, feats, saves, base attack, etc.
Challenge Rating(CR) = what level of party of 4 the opponent should be an appropriate challenge for. Associated levels add +1, non-associated levels add +1/2(round down) until they become associated.
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In PF (from what I've read, I haven't really looked at the rules in depth myself)
Character Level = CR(before class HD added on) + Class HD
Total HD = *see above*
CR = *see above*
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I still use 3.5, but I have given for each LA a free level in a pseudo-commoner class (1d4HD, 1/4BA, all poor saves, 2+Int skill points, no class skills). This makes ECL and total HD the same in my games.