"Incorrect" encounters - how do I handle them?

[Jiggy]

So I'm running my third or fourth PFS scenario this weekend, and I'm looking it over...

Then I discover that the stats in the encounters are all wrong (does it have something to do with being a Season 0 scenario?) and I'm wondering what to do with it.

Some of the monsters don't have listed statblocks, just page references to the 3.5 Monster Manual. Obviously, I have no choice but to use the most appropriate stats I can find in the Bestiary. (Although hit points are listed in the scenario, and they're different from the Bestiary - which do I use?)

But the humanoids... Okay, the ability scores are all wrong (stats are 11/11/11/10/10/10 post-racial and the CRB says basic, non-heroic NPCs should have 13/12/11/10/9/8 pre-racial), they're supposed to be warriors but they're shown with d8 hit dice while the CRB says they should be d10, they're at half hit points for first level instead of full (or do NPCs not get full HP at lv1?), and so forth.

So how do I handle these? Am I expected to "correct" or "update" stats that are clearly not using PFRPG rules? Or does that count as modifying the adventure and is a no-no? Note that I'm not even considering changing feat selections or gear or anything like that... but shouldn't a melee grunt be using the melee NPC ability score array? And the correct hit die?

Help!

[Eric Clingenpeel]

GtPFSOP wrote:

Season 0 (Scenarios #1–#28): Season 0 scenarios

were written under the 3.5 rules set of the world’s oldest
roleplaying game, before the release of the Pathfinder
Roleplaying Game. All 3.5 scenarios are in the process of
being updated to the current rules and rereleased. In the
meantime, scenarios are to be run with minimal changes
by GMs, limited to adding CMB/CMD scores to NPCs
and monsters and using newly combined skills such as
Stealth and Perception instead of Move Silently and Spot.
If a creature appears in the scenario that also appears
in the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 2,
or Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 3 and maintains the same CR
between both rules sets, you may use the Pathfinder RPG
stats in place of the 3.5 stats. This is the only substitution
allowed in these scenarios.
When running a Season 0 scenario with 1 Prestige Point
available per PC, treat this as the sole faction mission,
and award a second Prestige Point to PCs that complete
the overall scenario goal, as given by the venture-captain
at the scenario’s introduction. If a Season 0 scenario has
two faction missions per faction, consider one mission
that of the faction and the other the overall success
conditions for the scenario. As Season 0 scenarios are
converted to Pathfinder RPG rules, these faction mission
differences will be eliminated as the old scenarios are
brought in line with the current system.

[Jiggy]

@Eric: Ach, thanks, I overlooked that.

So with the "human warrior 1" guys, even though stats for that exist, said stats are in the NPC gallery rather than the Bestiary and are therefore not a legal substitution, right?

[ZomB]

Jiggy wrote:

(or do NPCs not get full HP at lv1?)

PRD says: "A creature gains maximum hit points if its first Hit Die roll is for a character class level. Creatures whose first Hit Die comes from an NPC class or from his race roll their first Hit Die normally. "

[Eric Clingenpeel]

Jiggy wrote:

@Eric: Ach, thanks, I overlooked that.

So with the "human warrior 1" guys, even though stats for that exist, said stats are in the NPC gallery rather than the Bestiary and are therefore not a legal substitution, right?

Correct.

[Jiggy]

Well, learn something every day. Thanks all!

[Jiggy]

Okay, so looking more at this scenario I'm going to be running...

What if the closest thing in the Bestiaries is a different CR, but there's no stat block in the scenario? Surely I'm not expected to go looking for 3.5 stats somewhere?

Spoiler:

The monster in question is a "large monstrous spider", listed in the scenario as CR 2. The closest I can find is a "giant black widow spider" in Bestiary 2; it's the right size (large) and is CR 3. Can I use it, or is there someplace I can pull 3.5 stats for the large monstrous spider?

[Chris Mortika]

Jiggy, does this link work for you: Scary thing with more legs than you.

[Vinyc Kettlebek]

Jiggy wrote:

Okay, so looking more at this scenario I'm going to be running...

What if the closest thing in the Bestiaries is a different CR, but there's no stat block in the scenario? Surely I'm not expected to go looking for 3.5 stats somewhere?

3.5 SRD

This site has all the stats from the 3.5 monster manual

[Feegle]

I ran Silent Tide last nig and came up wi anothe issue along the same lines.

Spoiler:

The Gut Wither Poison

My players wanted to use this at the end of the scenario, but PF changed all the rules as to how this type of item functions. I made a quick house-rule on the spot to make up for it, but are there any guidelines for this type of thing in the future?

[Vinyc Kettlebek]

Feegle wrote:

I ran Silent Tide last nig and came up wi anothe issue along the same lines.

** spoiler omitted **

My players wanted to use this at the end of the scenario, but PF changed all the rules as to how this type of item functions. I made a quick house-rule on the spot to make up for it, but are there any guidelines for this type of thing in the future?

Spoiler:

The stats for the Gut Wither poison are in Silent Tide at the end of Act 1.

The poison found during the adventure is not on the chronicle sheet, so it can’t be purchased at the end of the scenario. Since the poison can only be used during Silent Tide, and the stats are listed in the module then there shouldn’t be too big a problem.

There are missing rules for onset and frequency. Most ingested poisons usually have an onset time of 1-10 minutes, some are a lot longer. Both the delivery method and onset time make it unsuitable for combat applications. Unless it was being used to interrogate a prisoner, it shouldn't have too much influence in any fight.

[Jiggy]

Chris Mortika wrote:

Jiggy, does this link work for you: Scary thing with more legs than you.

It does! But how does the poison work in 3.5?

EDIT: Okay, so it looks like poison works differently in 3.5 than Pathfinder - every poison does its thing once immediately and once more a minute later?

So do poison rules get ported in from 3.5 along with the monster's stats? Or do I have to somehow convert it?

[Vinyc Kettlebek]

The rules for updating Season 0 mods lists what can me changed to PFRPG rules. Creature attacks aren’t listed. So you will have to use the 3.5 poison rules for the monsters.

For 3.5 the rules work like this.
First Saving Throw made on the Poison’s onset.
For injury poisons the onset is a successful attack that deals damage.
If the PC makes the first save they ignore the poison.
If they fail they take the primary damage and have to make 1 more save one minute later. If they pass the second save no further damage is done.
If they fail they take the secondary effect and then that is it.

The rules really aren’t too much different than PFRPG. The poisons just have slightly different stats than standard PFRPG poisons. For example Large Monstrous Spider venom from the MM would look something like this in PFRPG stats.

Large Spider Venom
Type:Injury Fort DC:13 Onset:-(injury) Frequency:1/min for 1 min Effect:1d6 Str Cure: 1 save

[Andrew Christian]

Jiggy wrote:

Chris Mortika wrote:

Jiggy, does this link work for you: Scary thing with more legs than you.

It does! But how does the poison work in 3.5?

EDIT: Okay, so it looks like poison works differently in 3.5 than Pathfinder - every poison does its thing once immediately and once more a minute later?

So do poison rules get ported in from 3.5 along with the monster's stats? Or do I have to somehow convert it?

Alternatively, if a creature has a stat block in one of the Bestiaries, you can use that stat block.

You could use the Giant Spider stat block with the Giant creature Template, which would make the medium spider large.

[Vinyc Kettlebek]

Andrew Christian wrote:

Alternatively, if a creature has a stat block in one of the Bestiaries, you can use that stat block.

You could use the Giant Spider stat block with the Giant creature Template, which would make the medium spider large.

He can't make that stat block swap, according to the Running Season 0 Rules in the current GtPFSOP. You can only swap out the MM creatures for Bestiary when the CRs match. The MM Lg Monstrous Spider is CR2 and the Bestiary Lg Giant Spider is CR3. Since 2 and 3 aren't the same he needs to use the MM version.

This rule was already pointed out in the 2nd post of the thread.

[Eric Clingenpeel]

Vinyc Kettlebek wrote:

Andrew Christian wrote:

Alternatively, if a creature has a stat block in one of the Bestiaries, you can use that stat block.

You could use the Giant Spider stat block with the Giant creature Template, which would make the medium spider large.

He can't make that stat block swap, according to the Running Season 0 Rules in the current GtPFSOP. You can only swap out the MM creatures for Bestiary when the CRs match. The MM Lg Monstrous Spider is CR2 and the Bestiary Lg Giant Spider is CR3. Since 2 and 3 aren't the same he needs to use the MM version.

This rule was already pointed out in the 2nd post of the thread.

But what Andrew was pointing out, is adding the giant template to the medium giant spider would 1) make it large and 2) give it +1 cr which would make it the cr 2 of the module

[Vinyc Kettlebek]

Wouldn’t applying templates be outside the allowable rules? In certain cases creature’s stat blocks specifically spells out the use of templates to make them, such as the Bestiary Ghast = Ghoul + Advanced template with extra powers. The guidelines don’t include any language for using templates to modify creatures to make them eligible for use in Season 0 scenarios.

Looking at Giant Spiders from the Bestiary the progression between sizes and their CRs don’t match a progression of stacking Giant templates for each new size. The medium spider is CR1 the large spider is CR3. That is not the result of simply adding the Giant template which has a +1 modifier. The huge spider is CR5, which again is a 2 point jump from the large. This monster has a built in progression for size increases.

Although his CR formula works out, I’m not sure if it is within the power of GM to use it in the fashion he is describing.

[Jiggy]

Vinyc Kettlebek wrote:

Wouldn’t applying templates be outside the allowable rules? In certain cases creature’s stat blocks specifically spells out the use of templates to make them, such as the Bestiary Ghast = Ghoul + Advanced template with extra powers. The guidelines don’t include any language for using templates to modify creatures to make them eligible for use in Season 0 scenarios.

Looking at Giant Spiders from the Bestiary the progression between sizes and their CRs don’t match a progression of stacking Giant templates for each new size. The medium spider is CR1 the large spider is CR3. That is not the result of simply adding the Giant template which has a +1 modifier. The huge spider is CR5, which again is a 2 point jump from the large. This monster has a built in progression for size increases.

Although his CR formula works out, I’m not sure if it is within the power of GM to use it in the fashion he is describing.

Clicked the FAQ for you. An interesting question.

In the meantime, I'll use the MM spider if I run a mid- or high-tier tomorrow, just to be safe.