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Okay. Let me start off by saying I dont want to use enlarge/reduce person, I legitimately want a gargantuan/tiny/diminutive eidolon. More emphasis on the small ones than the big ones.
Specifically I want it to work with the broodmaster. So you can do like the broodmaster artwork, and have some tiny rodents. Because those are size tiny, and because I want to make my ferret-summoner.
Yes, 8 ferrets or weasels or squirrels or housecats will not be the big combat devastator that 2 Mediums would be.
But they'd make great scouts, great distractors, and you can always use a different set of eidolons tomorrow, assuming access to 4th level spells or a wand. You could easily make them bipeds and have them act like quadrupeds (you wont be giving them pounce anyways, and most squirrels don't go 30ft/round on 4 legs, but they do use their front legs like hands).
You give them all 2 ranks in climb, and skilled:climb. With your remaining 4 evolution points, half of them can have skilled: UMD. (and thats assuming tiny size is worth as much as small size (which it really isn't)
If you decide 4 tiny eidolons is enough for you? you have 4 skillpoints each, and each of them has 4 evolution points as well. Make them monkeys. Cast mad monkeys. Send them out into the chaos, have them return with some nice new stuff.
I was disappointed when I found out that Tiny and Diminutive weren't options. It killed my 4 imps idea, my 7th ed mtg inspired squirrel hermit idea. Diminutive is a side note, because the only diminutive thing I can think of is the frog. But I'm sure I could come up with a cool idea for it later.
So:
How would you price it out? Gargantuan would be rather expensive as some sort of further upgrade to huge (and you couldnt take it until late game), but tiny and diminutive should be much easier mechanically.
It makes sense to double the EP expended for every larger size category... it has less sense to pay EP to reduce your eidolon. You actually should GAIN EP!
Maybe you could create an archetype (compatible with broodmaster) which starts with a D/T eidolon and then pays 1 EP to make it grow if the summoner wants.
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It makes sense to double the EP expended for every larger size category... it has less sense to pay EP to reduce your eidolon. You actually should GAIN EP!
Maybe you could create an archetype (compatible with broodmaster) which starts with a D/T eidolon and then pays 1 EP to make it grow if the summoner wants.
That's not quite how it works for broodmaster, its that you have the same total number of EP (minus the flat cost of Large(4) or Huge(10), and you have to divide it between your eidolons.
Likewise, you have to divide your HD, Skillpoints, and the Maximum number of natural attacks per round up between your Eidolons.So the 8 weasels at level 12? 5 of them get to attack, unless I hand them teeny little weapons and give them the weapon proficiency somehow, then each of them gets to attack twice, for a total of 16 attacks, each doing like 1d3-1 damage. lol.
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That's not quite how it works for broodmaster, its that you have the same total number of EP (minus the flat cost of Large(4) or Huge(10), and you have to divide it between your eidolons.
Likewise, you have to divide your HD, Skillpoints, and the Maximum number of natural attacks per round up between your Eidolons.
So the 8 weasels at level 12? 5 of them get to attack, unless I hand them teeny little weapons and give them the weapon proficiency somehow, then each of them gets to attack twice, for a total of 16 attacks, each doing like 1d3-1 damage. lol.
So if you have 4 Eidolons that are the same, each of them has 1/4 of your total EP, 1/4 of your skill points, and 1/4 of your max natural attacks. You can get 1 really powerful one, 2 decently strong ones, or a bunch of them that are pathetically weak, but have a high BAB.
The costs of each thing dont change based on eidolon size (with the exception of the attribute bonuses).
You've brought up some good points though, and given me much to ponder. I'm now considering doing a serious number crunch to figure out what would be a more equal way in terms of CR of dividing everything up. Because other than giving them all wands, I can't find much practical use for having more than 2 Eidolons. Just the RP value. Hmm.
Come to think of it. Based on the pattern the Broodmaster currently uses, I honestly can't see any reason not to include the standard summoner and roll the whole thing into the default package. It wouldnt be a power boost in any way. It would just let you decide to change out your one powerful eidolon for a couple weaker ones.
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So I figured out what they would get at sizes Tiny and Diminutive
+2 AC Size
-2 CMB/CMD
+4 Fly
+8 Stealth
Reach 0
2 Sizes Smaller Wpns.
+4 AC (Size)
-4 CMB/CMD
+6 Fly
+12 Stealth
Reach 0
3 Sizes Smaller Weapons.
I'm trying to price out what these would be worth as eidolon base sizes. I'm thinking that they would actually give you a couple points, but I'm not sure how many. Anyone have any suggestions?
The idea is that (for a Broodmaster) you could (normally) have up to 4 tiny or 8 Diminutive eidolons. Double that to 8 Tiny, or up to 16 Diminutive eidolons if they buy the larger brood enhancement, Double that again to up to 16 tiny or 32 diminutive if they pay for huge.
Of course, they have to have that many eidolon hit dice available, meaning they'd never REALLY get access to more than 15 of them.
I suppose you could allow for swarms too. But thats going a couple steps farther than my goal, which is:
4, 8, or 16 tiny eidolons. Weasels, Ferrets, Squirrels, Rats, Small Monkeys, whatever, its all good.
So... tips on how to price this, and reasons for the numbers you give?
I'd say that you could have it for free, if your tiny rats/insects swarm really get 1/16 of your evolution pool. Nice idea, by the way.
I'm also thinking about a Diminutivist archetype who starts with a single Tiny or Diminutive eidolon with some more free evolutions to compensate the size... then:
D-T = 1 point
T-S = 1 point
S-M = 2 points
It's a reverse progression from Huge-Large-Medium^^
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Here's the broodmaster, since you seem to not know what it does.
Broodmaster.
It divides them between your eidolons, as I described above.
Its the only summoner archetype thae makes characters who are a bit *Weaker than a fighter or druid or whatever.
As for your proposal, to adjust the broodmaster to start with diminutive or fine eidolons, that could work, but I'd suggest you look at how broodmaster works to start, and eidolons too. I like the basic idea though.
Thoughts:
Small and Medium are the same price.
Large costs 4.
Huge costs 10.
For a broodmaster, you dont pay for larger and huge multiple times, you pay for it once, and it increases the maximum size you have to start with.
After that, you get a mass distribution. Basically.
So I have Large: A regular summoner could have one eidolon, and it would be a large eidolon.
For some reason I *HAVE* to have at least two, and I can't make them bigger than medium, as a Cap (I believe broodmaster should just be rolled into the default summoner rules).
And here is the broodmaster rule:
You can trade in a large eidolon for 2 of the next size down, so long as you have enough hit dice for each eidolon to get at least 1.
But there are no rules for Diminutive and Tiny.
So since it works from maximum size downward, I've been thinking that the easiest way to work them in is not to start at diminutive and buy upgrades, but to have sizes smaller than small grant bonus EP.
If we went with your method, you'd maybe get the bonus once, regardless of if you have one tiny eidolon or a whole bunch.
If we go with what I'm proposing, when you have multiple eidolons, yes you will divide your evolutions between them, but to compensate for their expanding weakness as a collective as you go down in size, I'm suggesting you grant bonus evolution points to them one-by one. So maybe tiny is worth 5.
I dont know that it is, its just a number I pulled out of thin air.
You havent purchased the larger brood upgrade, so youre still walking around with your two small eidolons. lets call them collies.
You can change those to 4 tiny eidolon weasels. Each one would gain +5EP to spend on stuff. You have a net gain of 20 pts this way yes, but keep in mind that you have to buy the same evolutions multiple times.
I'm proposing some bonus EP for every size you go below your maximum, and proposing that you give the character the option to go with one or more eidolons, as they choose, instead of having a one eidolon archetype, and a *more than one eidolon* archetype.
Or basically:
1. Fix the rules for multiple eidolons to make it a reasonably competitive option. and
2. Allow any summoner to take advantage of them (Except the Synthesist), should he choose.
3. And you should have the option of reducing size without increasing number. If you want to have 1 tiny eidolon, that should be ok.