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Hi. I'm running a 6 player game, so the module needs beefing up. Besides "more" creatures in each encounter I've had a few ideas to increase the threat for a big party. I'm interested to hear any other ideas too.
Idea #1 ****DIABLO video game like re-gen lake****
I have the lake spawn skeletons and zombies at will. This works great - as every time the players enter or leave Harrowstone they either have to deal with a minor threat.
Idea #2 ****Entry Gate****
The initial entry has a full blown fear effect instead of shaken. Also the gates slam shut and lock. (no haunt, just slam and lock) I set the DC to open the lock at 22.
Idea #3 - **** INFARAMRY POLTERGEIST ****
Give him full telekinesis as opposed to just the 1d4 surgical implement attack. I had the poltergeist push a PC into the pit into the lower dungeon, wrestle the war hammer from the cowardly priest. Player really didn't like getting beat down with his own hammer! HA HA!
Hi. I'm running a 6 player game, so the module needs beefing up.
I'm running 6 players, 20points buy (CC recomends 4players 15 buy). I run quite good by maxing the HP of each Monster and adding mostly 2 hit dice of Monsters to the encounter.
The ideal situation is that you want to increase the longevity of the monsters, and their damage output, but retain the rest of the game balance with regard to the players abilities.
More monsters is the ideal situation for most fights.
For fights where you don't want to do this, such as The Splatter Man, the Lopper etc, beware of doing things that damages the PCs curve. Eg, adding hit dice, which adds +hit, +saves, etc, damage the PCs spell output, knowledge scores, ACs, etc, which you don't really want to penalise. You want to just give them more damage (both DPR and spike damage) and last a big longer. You also want to maintain the "theme" of the fight - some are supposed to be short and bloody, some more tactical, etc...
Evil, Paul
You make a good point - novice GM's be warned - throwing higher level CR monsters at a party increases the odds of PC fatality quite a bit. Theres much written on this including a god example in the Gamemastery Guide.
More of the same type of monster specd is a great way to up challenges.
Also note - not every fight should tax the PC's to the point of death or rest!
These ideas are just for souping up the threats so that a large party dosent just cake walk the whole darn thing!
OK..lets make it clearer.
"and adding mostly 2 hit dice of Monsters to the encounter."
dosnt mean you ADD 2HD to the creature, but you add 2hd OF creatures.
e.g.: Skelletons in basement. To get the CR up to the PC's on average you can add 2HD of creatures -> Skelleton CR1/3 -> 6 more skelletons will keep the CR on par with MY group (20buy, 6 players).
Said that you dont do that on a SINGLE monster (splatter man)
I'm used this now for HoH and TotB and it works for my party, but its ONLY a rule of thumb.
I belive you should give the players a challenging and exciting game. So if you need to fugde you fudge. I dont kill PC lighly. but thats just me. My group has fun playing with me and I focus on their character development, then on rule slaving.
Windspirit - I knew what you meant ;-) My novice GM comment was an open letter statement, and a caveat to newer GM's. Your ideas seem sound to me. I'm going to try them in my game. I may need to watch it though - I only gave the PC's a 15 point buy.
Windspirit - I knew what you meant ;-)
sorry...overreacted... :)
You have fun.
Windspirit - I knew what you meant ;-)sorry...overreacted... :)
You have fun.
Running Harrowstone with a party of 6. I was very concerned that the battle with the Piper would be a piece of cake and as it was going to be their first encounter with "the Final Five" (and the haunting encounter I liked most) I really wanted to give it more "oomph". Since this was at the game table I didn't have a chance to plot it out exactly and I made some gut decisions based on their available resources and classes.
On the fly changes: I expanded the radius of the Piper and adding about 8 more skeletons. We have an alchemist whose splash damage could have destroyed the physical encounter "as is" without help from the party.
I wanted the Piper to be a larger ambient threat so I expanded his radius to most of the open area of the second floor but I otherwise ran him exactly how he was built.
It was the best encounter so far. The players were spooked and after flattening everything else on the first floor they really loved the challenging fight. Especially when they saw the Piper and his phantom stirges began draining their blood: The afflicted players saw what was happening but their companions only saw holes appearing in their skin and blood pouring forth, splattering against the floor.
Note: I've been running games for my group for years so I know how to adapt encounters to challenge them without going overboard. Be careful with adding so many skeletons against a group without reliable aoe.
Thanks Darkstrom. This is exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to see on this thread!
I'm running HoH with 8, so I feel your pain. The suspenseful survival horror I imagined in my head has given way to the reality of an *army* charging into Harrowstone to bust heads and take names. All while cracking goofy jokes and generally taking the campaign in a whole new direction. The slapstick comedy version of Carrion Crown.
So far we've only had two real fights. One was the poltergeist. I added a rat swarm under its control and the creep factor worked really well, plus the rats ate up the alchemists' bombs so the 'geist didn't go down in two rounds like a chump.
Next was the laundry, where I added a second straitjacket. It was a very tough fight. My philosophy right now is to treat my large party as two smaller parties, so each encounter has twice the monsters. I'm worried about how to implement this further down the road with the Big Five, though. Lopper's gonna get ruined unless I add something to that fight and I'm still thinking about what that will be.
Maybe the Lopper gets the equiv. of a spiritual weapon spell - same damage and attack bonus as his main weapon? Or maybe a swarm of small handaxes similar to the P-Geist in the hospital room above, giving him more smaller attacks...
oh oh - or maybe some beheaded, former victims now in his thrall, to aid him?
This is exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to see on this thread!
Piper: I added scelletons and maxed HO's
Splatter: Maxed HP. nothing else. I used his Summon Monster and the Splatter Words AND the terrain to keep my group VERY bussy. Either they where fighting him (ranged)- cause he can go thought walls but the charachters not, washed there Names off wall on the opposite where they curently are or killed the summoned monsters.
Father: I left that as it was, and it worked quite well.
Mosswater: Max HP, 2 additional Skulls. Also the fact that the fighter had his hammer helped (me :))
Looper: maxed HP, terain
I like the extra axes idea for Lopper. I really want to keep him as a solo, mostly because of that illustration with that maniacal grin; imagine that thing coming after you alone, toes dragging weightlessly along the stone...
What about Gurtis Vortch?
You could give Gurtis his own head as a beheaded, which would remove his blinded condition until destroyed.....
Don't have the book in front of me, so not sure if he would be too buff if he had sight.
He'd be a lot tougher, but I want tougher. I had been thinking of making Vortch into a pair of twins: Gurtis and Orwick Vortch. One is blind and has the axe, the other one has a head, but no weapon. Also, more skeletons, muahahahaha.
I ran the Piper Haunt last night...party of 5....
Threw about 10 skeletons at them, all the stirges (giant and smaller ones)and the Piper.
Players were frustrated with the holds and the fear effect, but they just kept firing area burst positive energy until the skeles dropped and the Piper stopped.
Breeze....
I ran the Piper Haunt last night...party of 5....
Threw about 10 skeletons at them, all the stirges (giant and smaller ones)and the Piper.
Players were frustrated with the holds and the fear effect, but they just kept firing area burst positive energy until the skeles dropped and the Piper stopped.
Breeze....
Sorry to hear that. Sounds like you have characters with more channeling than I did. My group ended up getting a bit split up. I had skeletons coming from both of the upstairs cell blocks and the stirges came in from the kitchen. My cleric only has.... 3 or 4 channels a day and she had to use some of them to heal the party/damage haunts earlier.
A better possibility if you have a lot of positive energy is to throw waves at them.
A better possibility if you have a lot of positive energy is to throw waves at them.
Ya. I like this - Very Diablo video game like, I'm doing this with the lake.
I have a party of six about to start hitting the five. They're pretty well spec'd for single target damage so a few hordes will be a good way to prove them otherwise xD. However I was thinking for the splatter man to have the blood on the walls, instead of disappearing to rise up 1d3 rounds later as an ectoplasmic creature (blood, flavorwise).
That with the splatterman moving through and into walls disappearing for one or two rounds every so often and his summoned creatures should make for an interesting fight.
Edit: it wouldn't be every letter, that'd be ridiculous. Probably every 3-4, 5-6. But I haven't looks towards balancing it yet, they're still a few game sessions away
A quick summary of my 8 person group's last game and the changes I made:
The Piper and Father Charlatan:
I widened the Piper's circle of influence until it covered the whole floor, and had wave after wave of skeletons coming in. I think ultimately there were 20 skeletons in three waves. The Piper targeted the barbarian while the unconscious cleric had her battle of wills with Father Charlatan. I doubled the Piper's hp and he lasted four rounds against my 2nd level party. Because of the large number of people, four rounds felt like a very long battle, but I think that had more to do with the channeling cleric being out of the fight.
Downstairs to the lower prison. Gurtis Vortch (and his identical twin Otis) charge about taking giant slices out of the PCs in a great scrap. For some reason my party immediately misidentified one of my two flaming skeletons as the Lopper. I thought it would be cool to make them a duo where one is headless and one isn't but I hadn't anticipated how very "Lopper and Victim"-like they looked. I should have made them both headless.
And now, the Lopper:
My great thundering mob of characters walked up to the oubliette and Lopper comes howling out of the pit. I had decided to mix things up by dividing his hp into three "chunks", and after each chunk he would change his tactics, like a staged boss from a videogame.
Embarrasingly, I *still* havn't decided what those tactics are! We stopped the game in the middle of combat because it was bedtime, so that's buying me some time and I need help! This is the situation right now. The party has just chewed away Lopper's first stage, and he just grinned and vanished from sight(because I haven't planned this far and WHEEE DM IMPROV TIEM). I intended to have him appear screaming behind the party as soon as they turn around and walk back down toward the collapsed stairs, but the party has decided the fight is over and has lowered a rope into the pit, with a 3rd level halfling bard on the end of it. We ended the session right then.
That's right. We stopped with a three-foot girl holding a lute in the lair of the still very-much-undead Lopper. What to do?
A few ideas I've got:
1. a lot of headless ectoplasmic humans rise from the ground and swarm the bard
2. Lopper reappears and attacks the bard mercilessly
3. Something comes up from the hall behind the party, there's a fight, then Lopper appears in the middle of it.
Anyway, I'd love to hear some thoughts.
Blaaarg - The lopper was pretty tough IMO - I fear your 3 stage idea might be overly fatal - unless you party really works together... Also - if the figure out that he is "affected" by fire, as my party did, they might be able to keep him on the defensive. If you play up his incorporeal-ness and play him somewhat "smart"(flying through bars and letting any bleed effects heal him) I believe he can be a challenge RAW.
I made one of the hands in the torture chamber grow onto the giant CR5 type. That kept them on their toes.
Love the giant hand. Our game was cancelled so I'm still mid-cliffhanger. I'll take your advice; I don't want any of my PCs lopped before they meet TSM, who is already perfect.
Pretty soon we're going to need a thread like this one for Trial of the Beast. I love my enormous group.
TSM went down much more easily than the Lopper (last night) - I think if TSM could "call" come ecto creatures that would help make him more of the boss he's supposed to be.
And yes - started TOtB last night - so this thread for that adventure will be a good Idea if we keep it going.
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I have started this week with session 1 of HoH and have 6 players and found this thread. Thanks for the ideas above and most chime with what I have done already:
kept the main fights identical;
added more of the same monster at roughly 50% extra where I could;
where that would bump numbers up too high, I have swapped out for a higher CR monster but kept the EL to about the same as 150% x original EL. For instance I swapped a load of CR 1/3 skeletons for a few skeletal champions.
However, I am intrigued with the suggestion way back in the thread by Windspirit to boost the HP to the maximum amount. That never got picked up again I think but sounds interesting. Isn't that cheating? If every fight is at max HP, that's very tough I'd have thought - PCs expending a lot more for exactly the same reward? Still it feels like a very simple but effective way to deal with extra PCs and I will try it.
Fleanetha - Cheating is not really possible as a DM, it's your game and your decisions about what is going to make the game more challenging and MORE FUN for your players is your own. If your players keep coming back you know you are doing a good job.
I maxed out all the common skeletons HP throughout this module and it went over fine, this was not overly lethal in my experience.
Oh - forgot to mention - I had a wight hiding under the collapsed porch the first time the party left the prison at 3rd level, followed up by a skele blitz up the stairs from the courtyard.
I think this would have been a fun fight, but the party alchemist critted the wight.. one shot drop on the poor ole wight.
FYI - I started a "Large Party" thread for TotB here:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/adventurePa th/carrionCrown/tOtBLargePartyIdeasSPOILERS&page=1#1
I have enjoyed this thread quite a bit, looking forward to your insights for the next installment! You guys rule!
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I'm running HoH with 8, so I feel your pain. The suspenseful survival horror I imagined in my head has given way to the reality of an *army* charging into Harrowstone to bust heads and take names. All while cracking goofy jokes and generally taking the campaign in a whole new direction. The slapstick comedy version of Carrion Crown.
So far we've only had two real fights. One was the poltergeist. I added a rat swarm under its control and the creep factor worked really well, plus the rats ate up the alchemists' bombs so the 'geist didn't go down in two rounds like a chump.
Next was the laundry, where I added a second straitjacket. It was a very tough fight. My philosophy right now is to treat my large party as two smaller parties, so each encounter has twice the monsters. I'm worried about how to implement this further down the road with the Big Five, though. Lopper's gonna get ruined unless I add something to that fight and I'm still thinking about what that will be.
My group will bounce between 8 and 10 on a given night, so I have to treat them like two smaller groups as well. I've encountered the same attitude as well...the group cracks goofy jokes and lacks any real tactical cohesion beyond ugg, kill, smash. They tried taking Harrowstone on at second level, thinking perhaps that their numbers would be an advantage. So far they've encountered two haunts - the executioner scythe and the foyer. They succeeded in spite of themselves, but we'll see just how well they do next time around as the group had the presence of mind to retreat back to Ravengro.
Thinking on the lopper - Maybe he heals from the bleed effect on a 2 for 1 basis - he gets 2 HP for every point drained? Just an idea to keep him in the fight longer.
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For pretty much everything in HoH I maxed Named NPCs hit points and added 50% additional mooks to challenge my six PCs.
The beheaded, ectoplasmic creatures, & skeletons are really the go-to mooks in Harrowstone. For the infirmary I added two alchemical ooze swarms to occupy casters & ranged characters.
Adding a slamming portal haunt never hurts to seperate large parties from each other either!
--Vrocky Horror
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Quick update: session 2 was last night with MAXIMISED HP for all monsters. After some of the Ravengro encounters (skeletons in Restlands / stirges in town square) my party of 6 decided to head off to Harrowstone.
They hit rats, scythe and Piper.
Quote: 'May be we missed some dungeons in the town and we should not have come here so soon'.
I am happy now: thank you.
J