The Question:
Are Summoners killed on sight in Ustalav?
The Details:
The group I'm in is about to start the Carrion Crown AP, the PC's so far are a Dwarven Cleric, Human(might play Dhampir) Witch, Dhampir Inquisitor, Human Paladin, and maybe a Human Summoner. However, the DM insists that summoners are killed on sight in Ustalav. To quote him:
“The module/players guide specifically says summoners are going to have a really hard time. The town you will be spending a lot of time in is very insular. They are libel to burn you at the stake for having an eidolon. Like I said you can play what you want. But when the villagers burn you at the stake you'll get no sympathy from me. The fact that the summoner is the only class with such a strong warning in the first paragraph should tell you something.”
I don’t get that at all from the Player’s Guide. The points I tried to make were that the Player’s Guide wouldn’t recommend skills and offer suggestions on how to incorporate them into the story if playing one was instant death. Also I can't see Paizo writing an AP that excluded a single base class while still making recommendations for the players who choose that class. He argued that the moment I cast a summoning spell the villagers would kill me. Also, he told one of the other players that if I played a summoner the whole party could be killed by the villagers.
Am I on crazy pills? Are Summoners kill on sight in Ustalav?
Speaking as a DM who has ran this module, from what I understand of Ravengro it is more of a 'run them out of town' kind of place more than a 'burn them at the stake' one. Lorrimor lived in Ravengro for some time doing all kinds of crazy magical and esoteric stuff that could have been seen as being anything from demon worshiping to necromancy. They may have talked about him behind his back, mistrusted him, and made things rough for him socially but they certainly didn't burn the guy alive for it. Ravengro is just a very passive-aggressive place with bored-small-town syndrome.
That being said, the simplest answer I can see for your summoner is to not let the people see the eidolon. Keeping it dismissed in town may have disadvantages but if the DM wants to keep on this course it may be the only option.
Ravengro is not Salem. They know magic exists and is used around the world. If he wants to play the town as witch-hunting fanatics... well at least he warned you.
Thanks for replying, Luther. I've only read the Player's Guide and wasn't sure if there was specific information in the modules themselves that would account for the summoner hate. The DM insight is very welcome.
I guess I should also mention that, following the advice in the Player’s Guide, the eidolon was biped and would appear as a human woman.
Oh, and believe me, I took that warning to heart!
Were I you, I would flat out ask the GM if they have a problem with summoners, and if this isn't his/her way of getting people not to play them. If that's not the case I would strongly consider finding another game to play in, as getting that kind of a responce from what the player's guide says is...well, very boneheaded.
The first few sessions my summoner didn't even summon her eidolon around the other PC. She summoned it in her private room and talked with it which led to hilarity as allegations of insanity were bandied about. It doesn't help that she refers to it as her Friend (as in the Imaginary kind).
We're in Trial of the Beast and she's summoned in public once.
Other than that it turns out once you're in or at a dungeon or a wilderness you can summon in the entryway and no one needs to see.
Long story short, I play my summoner as though an eidolon is something to be ashamed of, something to keep secret. Something only trusted friends (read: other PCs) should have to see. If the townsfolk see my eidolon then something has gone wrong somewhere.
My summoner playing PC retired his character for the AP - citing that the thing was just too over powered. And he's a power gamer. Maybe we were missing something, but our entire group thinks the summoner class is broken. I no longer allow that class in my game, Ustalav or no.
Anyone else playing a summoner feel a little Uber powered?
One of my players has a summoner in Wake and Ashes and just summoned his Eidelon once they were away from the cities. There wasn't any problems. He was a bit weak during city encounters but the party as a whole got through it fine.
Your DM is always correct so long as he's DMing. Doesn't matter what's actually in the AP books. If he says that Summoners are KOS in Ustalav, then they are.
To be clear: that's material he's added, it's not in the printed material but that doesn't matter. Summoners are KOS in Ustalav as far as you need be concerned.
Personally, I also ban Summoners in my game, but that's because they hog too much table-time. I know a lot of people are touchy about banning things. People always seem to go up in arms when GMs try to ban things. I ban Summoners for crunch reasons and Monks for fluff reasons in all my games. Yea, my PCs grumble. Yea, they'd grumble less if I made up a reason like "they are KOS", because then Paizo is the bad-guy instead of me. I'm going to guess your GM is doing something similar. *shrug*
Your DM is always correct so long as he's DMing. Doesn't matter what's actually in the AP books. If he says that Summoners are KOS in Ustalav, then they are.
To be clear: that's material he's added, it's not in the printed material but that doesn't matter. Summoners are KOS in Ustalav as far as you need be concerned.
Personally, I also ban Summoners in my game, but that's because they hog too much table-time. I know a lot of people are touchy about banning things. People always seem to go up in arms when GMs try to ban things. I ban Summoners for crunch reasons and Monks for fluff reasons in all my games. Yea, my PCs grumble. Yea, they'd grumble less if I made up a reason like "they are KOS", because then Paizo is the bad-guy instead of me. I'm going to guess your GM is doing something similar. *shrug*
If this was the case I would have just accepted it and moved on, but his position is that he doesn't want to tell anyone what to play but his hands are tied; the Player's Guide says Summoners are pretty much killed on sight and that they are the only class with this warning. Like Fraust above suggested, I even asked if he just didn't want summoners in the game. He claims he's just going by the Player's Guide, and after reading it I'm just not coming to same conclusion he has. I withdrew from the campaign, I'm not trying to force a class on the group (we're all old friends) and the debate was causing division, I just think he's badly misinterpreted the guide.
As an aside, do you also ban Druids? And if not, how does a druid with an animal companion and spontaneous Summon Nature's Ally spells take up less table-time than a summoner?
We also use MapTool, between the macros and fully stat-ed (stat'd? does that look right?) monster tokens a few button clicks and the turn is over.
Creative Director
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As an aside, do you also ban Druids? And if not, how does a druid with an animal companion and spontaneous Summon Nature's Ally spells take up less table-time than a summoner?
I'm not the one you asked... but since I don't allow summoners in my game but DO allow druids, I thought I'd step in and explain myself.
It's not becasue I think summoners are too powerful. It's because I don't like the flavor of the summoner in games I run because it gives TOO much world-creation control to a player. Maybe I'm too tight-fisted and too much of a control freak for games I run... but I don't want to let players build monsters out of the blue for my games.
Druids don't have this problem, because they pick their animal companions from a list of animals that already exist in the game.
Summoners, though... they get to make their critter up all on their own. A player of a summoner could build the Kool-Aid man as their eidolon and it'd be legal, by the rules. Such an eidolon would be completely out of place in my game, though. So I'd not allow the eidolon and would tell the player to make a NEW eidolon... but since I'm so much of a control freak about what can and can't exist in games I run as far as monsters are concerned, I'd PROBABLY just end up telling the summoner player something like, "You have to build your eidolon to match an existing outsider as closely as possible."
Had we gone with presenting summoners in that light, more like druids (except that a summoner would pick a bearded devil, succubus, lillend, hound archon, fire elemental, or whatever for his eidolon), I'd have no problem with them. But we didn't, and that's the reason I don't allow summoners in games I run.
(NOTE: If you join a game I run AND you build a summoner with an eidolon that fits nicely into the world, I'd let you play that summoner. Wes did this for a game we're in—his summoner's eidolon is, essentially, an angel—looks like an angel, talks like one, attacks like one, IS one pretty much, even though it's statted up as an eidolon.)
Hmmmm..When the Creative Director says he finds the class over powered then something is definitely wrong with it.My own experience as a PFS fighter around Eidolons was that I felt sidelined.
Did not expect a James Jacobs reply, but it's greatly appreciated. However, I would just like to point out that the comparison was made regarding table-time spent per turn and not the potential difference between companions. I do agree with you, as a matter of personal preference I'd prefer an eidolon that looked like something that already existed rather then something spawned from the Weird (that place under the fridge that sometimes hisses, growls, or makes bubbling sounds when you stand too close).
But seriously, you'd let me play a Broodmaster who's eidolons all looked like Fraggles, yes?
@DM Wellard, It looks like James is saying that he doesn't think they are too powerful, not that they are over powered. You're not going to convince me I'm crazy. I know your tricks!
While I can understand the GM in your game not wanting a summoner because they are (overpowered, too weird, slow the game down, just to awsome for his game, etc...) It would seem he/she should just say so, instead of saying you can make one, but your just going to be killed by a crazed mob.
On the other hand though, I always thought classes were meta game knowledge. Even in a world of magic, would Joe the farmer actually know the difference between a wizard, sorcerer, witch, bard, summoner. All of them use magic on a regular basis, and no one is wearing "Hi I am Bob the Summoner" name tags. The eidolon might freak them out, but probably not much more than a druid walking into town with a wild animal in tow.
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Hmmmm..When the Creative Director says he finds the class over powered then something is definitely wrong with it.
Where exactly did Mr. Jacobs say summoners were overpowered? You mean the following quote?
It's not because I think summoners are too powerful. It's because I don't like the flavor of the summoner in games I run.
Because he says exactly the opposite. Rather, James claims he doesn't like the potential flavor conflicts of PC-built eidolons. Before you know it, hasty, incorrect assumptions like this, as well as your false quote, will be all over the boards, and months from now, we'll be in a summoner thread and someone will reference your false assumption and before you know it, it becomes something people are convinced the creative director actually said, rather than the very thorough explanation provided otherwise, which will be lost to the ages.
Please be respectful and don't put words in developers' mouths. We have enough problems on the boards trying not to get our wires crossed.
Thanks! =-)
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No disrespect was intended..it just proves I shouldn't read posts when I really should be sleeping.