An idea for a house rule for weapon finesse: any weapon that has a natural crit range of 18-20, should be finesse-able. any thoughts?
Yeah, why? It's basically a constraint for developers, "don't give the weapon 18-20 if you don't want it to be finessable"
Yeah, why? It's basically a constraint for developers, "don't give the weapon 18-20 if you don't want it to be finessable"
if a weapon is that easy to crit with, why not make it finessable? a good deal of the 18-20 weapons are already finessable, the only ones that are missing are some of the 2 handers such as the katana and the falchon. the urumi would benefit because it is like a whip and the whip is finessable. having a good crit range, to me means its lighter than normal weapons and able to slice easier. 6 out of the 15 18-20 range weapons are already finessable and 3 of those that are not are combat scabbards, 4 are 2 handers and the rest are 1 handers. i dont think adding a 6 non-improvised weapons to the finessable list would not break the game, since the biggest finessable weapon is already a d10 damage, nothing would make that go any higher. most of them are d6 or d8. the only thing that would be close to OP is the Fauchard (polearm from Classic Horrors Revisited Page 8) finesse with a polearm can get a little out of control with combat reflexes, but the player still will not be hitting as hard as strength base.
Some GMs allow it free with light weapons. I just don't see it with heavy ones.
Probably want to add the caveat that increasing the crit range of a weapon via keen or Improved Critical or other means doesn't suddenly add finesse-ability.
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Hay guiz! I CAN FINNESS MAH GRATESWORD!
that's why i said natural crit range of 18-20.
Some GMs allow it free with light weapons. I just don't see it with heavy ones.
its already available for light weapons as per the feat.
Probably want to add the caveat that increasing the crit range of a weapon via keen or Improved Critical or other means doesn't suddenly add finesse-ability.
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Hay guiz! I CAN FINNESS MAH GRATESWORD!that's why i said natural crit range of 18-20.
Some GMs allow it free with light weapons. I just don't see it with heavy ones.its already available for light weapons as per the feat.
I meant that you didn't have to take the feat in some games. You want weapon finesse, you already have it.
ah, i see, i thought it was a little odd.
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I'm one of those GMs. Ny idea is that many of the finesse weapons were always meant to be reliant on Dex more than brute force. My opinion, that means if you are trained with, say a rapier, then PROPER training would include the right way to wield the blade. I think that the Weapon Finesse Feat should be something you would apply MAYBE to one handed weapons. Maybe something like this.
Weapon Finesse
Prereq: 13 Dex, +4 BAB, Weapon Focus in a one handed weapon
Benefit: The character may use Dex in place of Str when wielding a one handed weapon he has the Weapon Focus feat with.
Rough idea, anyway.
I give weapon finesse as a bonus feat as well, I am fine with allowing it for many other weapons, mostly one-handed blades, I would make them feats specific to a single weapon type or group, all one-handed swords would be fine for one.
Since the bigger weapons are likely to need more strength to wield properly I will probably set a strength minimum of 13 (longswords) or 15 (falchion) or none (quarterstaff) as well as weapon focus, though I do allow weapon focus to be taken in groups rather than individual weapons according to the fighter's weapon training groups.
I give weapon finesse as a bonus feat as well, I am fine with allowing it for many other weapons, mostly one-handed blades, I would make them feats specific to a single weapon type or group, all one-handed swords would be fine for one.
Since the bigger weapons are likely to need more strength to wield properly I will probably set a strength minimum of 13 (longswords) or 15 (falchion) or none (quarterstaff) as well as weapon focus, though I do allow weapon focus to be taken in groups rather than individual weapons according to the fighter's weapon training groups.
yeah i understand having the proper strength to even carry the weapon, i just think the katana and falchion should be finesseable.
Probably want to add the caveat that increasing the crit range of a weapon via keen or Improved Critical or other means doesn't suddenly add finesse-ability.
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Hay guiz! I CAN FINNESS MAH GRATESWORD!that's why i said natural crit range of 18-20.
And yet a keen mithral longsword (both lighter and with a wider threat range than a scimitar) would not be finessable?
In all reality, what's so horrible about a finessable greatsword? The lack of STR bonus would make damage weaker and only compensated with Power Attack. I doubt that a finesse-oriented 2-handed fighter be outrageously overpowered compared to your typical STR-oriented 2-handed fighter.
And yet a keen mithral longsword (both lighter and with a wider threat range than a scimitar) would not be finessable?
In all reality, what's so horrible about a finessable greatsword? The lack of STR bonus would make damage weaker and only compensated with Power Attack. I doubt that a finesse-oriented 2-handed fighter be outrageously overpowered compared to your typical STR-oriented 2-handed fighter.
It wouldn't break anything in game terms, it's just that greatswords were made for hard slashing (and thrusting), and relied on strength to do their thing. If it were made of super-light fantasy metal, it would still be the same design.
Of course, most swords and daggers were both slashing and piercing weapons by design, so we're not playing a game of precise versimilitude in the first place.
It wouldn't break anything in game terms, it's just that greatswords were made for hard slashing (and thrusting), and relied on strength to do their thing. If it were made of super-light fantasy metal, it would still be the same design.
Indeed, you could even argue that greatswords *couldn't* do their thing without a significant weight.
But in terms of gameplay, all Weapon Finesse does is determine whether agility take precedence over strength in terms of manipulation of the weapon and combat style.
Both of use know that being efficient in a fight takes both strength and agility, but the game system being an abstraction of reality, takes one aspect in consideration and ignores the other. The system also allows use to use agility over strength over half the combat mechanics (seeing how damage is still based on STR) for a limited selection of weapons (and at the cost of extra training). I personally don't see an issue with expanding this selection of weapons to the greatsword, both in terms of verisimilitude and game balance.
Personally, I go as far as giving 'finessable' as weapon quality for light weapon and rapiers (allowing anyone using these weapon to use DEX in lieu of STR on attack rolls without any special training or feat) and allow any weapon to be finessable with the purchase of Weapon Finesse.
If Jackie Chan can make a stepladder looks like a finesse weapon, surely a trained fighter can make dextrous use of a quarterstaff, a spear or a glaive, never-mind a simple longsword...
'findel
I don't see where the crit range would have anything to do with the ability to use it dextrously.
A better fix would be any weapon you use with one hand... Otherwise it's just a shackle on designers. If they want to make some kind of Extra hard 2-handed slashing weapon... that should do less damage, but more crit... I don't know some kind of jagged war axe or something... they're locked into making instantly finessable.
I don't think that was the design philosophy when they made the concept.
I DO agree that MORE weapons need to finessable (COUGH-Sword cane-COUGH) but I don't see basing it on crit range as the answer.
It wouldn't break anything in game terms, it's just that greatswords were made for hard slashing (and thrusting), and relied on strength to do their thing. If it were made of super-light fantasy metal, it would still be the same design.Indeed, you could even argue that greatswords *couldn't* do their thing without a significant weight.
But in terms of gameplay, all Weapon Finesse does is determine whether agility take precedence over strength in terms of manipulation of the weapon and combat style.
Both of use know that being efficient in a fight takes both strength and agility, but the game system being an abstraction of reality, takes one aspect in consideration and ignores the other. The system also allows use to use agility over strength over half the combat mechanics (seeing how damage is still based on STR) for a limited selection of weapons (and at the cost of extra training). I personally don't see an issue with expanding this selection of weapons to the greatsword, both in terms of verisimilitude and game balance.
Personally, I go as far as giving 'finessable' as weapon quality for light weapon and rapiers (allowing anyone using these weapon to use DEX in lieu of STR on attack rolls without any special training or feat) and allow any weapon to be finessable with the purchase of Weapon Finesse.
If Jackie Chan can make a stepladder looks like a finesse weapon, surely a trained fighter can make dextrous use of a quarterstaff, a spear or a glaive, never-mind a simple longsword...
'findel
How about making dexterity the default to hit modifier and strength the default damage. From a game mechanics point I like this better, making the less advantageous combat styles less burdened by feat cost.
I also like the hard hitter hits less frequently, it would probably be needing some adjustments in the system though, removing size modifiers to hit would probably be a good start.
How about making dexterity the default to hit modifier and strength the default damage. From a game mechanics point I like this better, making the less advantageous combat styles less burdened by feat cost.
I also like the hard hitter hits less frequently, it would probably be needing some adjustments in the system though, removing size modifiers to hit would probably be a good start.
i play WOD games and they use dex to hit, which makes more sense because i think dex is more accuracy than str is. i like the idea of dex being used to hit, it would make dex less of a dump stat than it is. i'm not saying dex is the main dump stat, but it can be one of them.
I think there are a lot of weapons that should be finessable but I don't think it should be based on its crit range. Some weapons I think should use finesse only (rapier and whip come to mind). As for dex being the main hit stat though, I kind of disagree I personally think both should be valid options barring certain weapons; Extremely heavy weapons like the axe and the greatsword should be based more off of strength than dexterity. From my understanding, the idea behind strength being the to-hit stat is because you're breaking through the enemy's defenses to get at them.
i play WOD games and they use dex to hit, which makes more sense because i think dex is more accuracy than str is. i like the idea of dex being used to hit, it would make dex less of a dump stat than it is. i'm not saying dex is the main dump stat, but it can be one of them.
However I think as far as stats goes, dexterity is one of the most useful stats as far as any class goes. Not even talking about finesse, it's used to hit ranged attacks, applies to AC, adds to reflex saves, initiative (really important), is an important requisite for many feats, and is used in many many skills which tend to be used often (acrobatics, ride, thief skills). Strength on the other hand is used for melee attacks, physical damage, encumbrance, swimming, and climbing... I just find it mind boggling that you think Dex needs to shine even more...
I think there are a lot of weapons that should be finessable but I don't think it should be based on its crit range. Some weapons I think should use finesse only (rapier and whip come to mind). As for dex being the main hit stat though, I kind of disagree I personally think both should be valid options barring certain weapons; Extremely heavy weapons like the axe and the greatsword should be based more off of strength than dexterity. From my understanding, the idea behind strength being the to-hit stat is because you're breaking through the enemy's defenses to get at them.
i play WOD games and they use dex to hit, which makes more sense because i think dex is more accuracy than str is. i like the idea of dex being used to hit, it would make dex less of a dump stat than it is. i'm not saying dex is the main dump stat, but it can be one of them.However I think as far as stats goes, dexterity is one of the most useful stats as far as any class goes. Not even talking about finesse, it's used to hit ranged attacks, applies to AC, adds to reflex saves, initiative (really important), is an important requisite for many feats, and is used in many many skills which tend to be used often (acrobatics, ride, thief skills). Strength on the other hand is used for melee attacks, physical damage, encumbrance, swimming, and climbing... I just find it mind boggling that you think Dex needs to shine even more...
+1 I have yet to play a character that completely dumps dex. The penalties are just too severe. Depending on the character type, I will dump strength and charisma long before I dump dex.
Weapon Finesse
Prereq: 13 Dex, +4 BAB, Weapon Focus in a one handed weapon
Benefit: The character may use Dex in place of Str when wielding a one handed weapon he has the Weapon Focus feat with.Rough idea, anyway.
The only thing I would change would be the BAB requirement. Weapon Focus requires a BAB of +1, so unless you're a fighter or a human ranger/barbarian/etc, you won't get it till 5th level anyway(3rd with a Rogue Talent).
+1 I have yet to play a character that completely dumps dex. The penalties are just too severe. Depending on the character type, I will dump strength and charisma long before I dump dex.I think there are a lot of weapons that should be finessable but I don't think it should be based on its crit range. Some weapons I think should use finesse only (rapier and whip come to mind). As for dex being the main hit stat though, I kind of disagree I personally think both should be valid options barring certain weapons; Extremely heavy weapons like the axe and the greatsword should be based more off of strength than dexterity. From my understanding, the idea behind strength being the to-hit stat is because you're breaking through the enemy's defenses to get at them.
i play WOD games and they use dex to hit, which makes more sense because i think dex is more accuracy than str is. i like the idea of dex being used to hit, it would make dex less of a dump stat than it is. i'm not saying dex is the main dump stat, but it can be one of them.However I think as far as stats goes, dexterity is one of the most useful stats as far as any class goes. Not even talking about finesse, it's used to hit ranged attacks, applies to AC, adds to reflex saves, initiative (really important), is an important requisite for many feats, and is used in many many skills which tend to be used often (acrobatics, ride, thief skills). Strength on the other hand is used for melee attacks, physical damage, encumbrance, swimming, and climbing... I just find it mind boggling that you think Dex needs to shine even more...
True, though as a GM I rather have characters that invest in dexterity more rather than strength, two handed weapons do so much damage already, I like to imagine hulking brutes like giants actually having trouble to hit properly despite their immense strength. Maybe it fits better with armor as DR rules..
True, though as a GM I rather have characters that invest in dexterity more rather than strength, two handed weapons do so much damage already, I like to imagine hulking brutes like giants actually having trouble to hit properly despite their immense strength. Maybe it fits better with armor as DR rules..
well i have not played with the armor as dr rules yet, but they do sound fun!
Weapon Finesse
Prereq: 13 Dex, +4 BAB, Weapon Focus in a one handed weapon
Benefit: The character may use Dex in place of Str when wielding a one handed weapon he has the Weapon Focus feat with.Rough idea, anyway.
As a rule I HATE Weapon Focus. It's just not worth a feat. Also, I like to make feats/weapons work for hte people who they are intended for.
Much like the sword canes should be favored by aristocrats,bards, and rogues... but he way it's written doesn't support it, I'm not a fan of making weapon focus a requirement to use a rapier... when the bards/rogues/elves already HAVE most of the finessable weapons on their weapon list.
Dex based fighting with rapiers/whips/etc... are typically for the LESS combat intenseive characters. THe ones going for a little more class than Ooomph. Forcing them to take combat feats in order to make it remotely feasable is too much...
also, rogues and bards (the dex fighters) are held back to at least lvl 6 before They can get it...
Which means 5 levels of using the rapier in ways it was NOT designed (historically) to fight...
I would prefer the simpler
Weapon Finesse
Prereq: 13 Dex,
Benefit: The character may use Dex in place of Str when wielding a one handed weapon he has the proficiency in.
That gets me to making my zorro style character match what i see in my head a lot faster...