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Let’s look forward in time and imagine an unlikely series of events unfolds...
[insert Mike Myers sound effect and hand waves: doodle doo doo, doodle doo doo...]
Just Imagine...
- Imagine, in a far-off place, at an unspecific date and a vague and uncertain – but increasingly IMMINENT - time, a company sells a product for Pathfinder RPG which is NOT aimed at converting an experienced roleplayer with a background (and usually, an existing gaming group) who played 3.5 or 4E. Instead, this product is aimed at recruiting entirely new players to Pathfinder – including those who have no experience with RPGs. At all;
- Imagine that many of the people who now own this product received that product as a gift at Xmas time;
- Imagine those new owners of Pathfinder Beginner Box own or have access to computers connected to the Internet. (Yes, folks this isn’t the days of the RedBox and they will NOT just ask their friends to play. They will go online and LOOK FOR HELP. The future really is now);
- Imagine that the product those same new players now own contains a reference to a website on the Internet called Paizo.com;
- Imagine that those who own that Beginner Box are looking for others to play this new game with – or to take their game to the “next level”, as it were;
- Imagine that they (or their parents) decide to look for and FIND a local event for Pathfinder Society at their local game store through this website; and
- Imagine that the organizers of said Pathfinder Society do not appear to have a contingency, or indeed, any sort of plan at all to actually manage an influx of that many new players or to deal with increased demands for GMs or space at said PFS events.
Seriously: what if this actually works? What if the Beginner Box actually succeeds and becomes a gateway game for 10,000-20,000+ BRAND new Pathfinder players between October, 2011 and, say, March, 2012.
Sure, it may be unlikely, but “unlikely” does not mean “impossible”. Moreover, if you had asked ANYBODY here whether Pathfinder could dislodge D&D as the #1 RPG 3 years ago, I think the overwhelming majority of us – (and by “us”, I include in that pronoun the owners and management of Paizo Publishing LLC ) would have ALL agreed that was damned unlikely, too.
Am I wrong here? Am I way off base? I know that these are – almost good problems to have. However, it seems to me that an “almost good problem” is another way of saying “Holy CRAP!!”
Seriously: what if this actually works? What if the Beginner Box drops a boat load of tweens and teens on local PFS nights in the coming months? Near as I can tell, this has not been discussed publicly. And because it has not been discussed publicly, I infer that the plan is “hope for the best and roll with it”.
While that may well be the best that can be done in all of the circumstances given limited resources, I’m pretty sure that is not a “plan”.
Any ideas? Comments?
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I don't know that I "don't have a plan" so much as the plan remains the same. I fully expect my game nights (and days) to grow, and count on it, in fact. When we first started doing them, we offered a single table once per month, throwing in the occasional Saturday. Two years later we are up to 3 tables twice per month and that Saturday seats 6 tables throughout the day. Ultimately, if PFS is running every Monday of the month - and two Saturdays - as a result of the Beginner Box, then the goal of expansion will have been achieved, I think. That's going from 144 tables per year (currently) to 300, dedicating only the space I currently give to it. If I add a time slot to Saturdays (we're open til midnight), and account for the occasional "fifth" Saturday of a month, I have room for another 84 tables on the schedule.
144 --> 300 --> 384
Considering the varied faces that show up for games currently (there are only a few "hard cores" that make every single game day), I think that's reasonable growing room.
If stores and organizers aren't similarly prepared, then you are correct, I suppose: there could be some hard feelings as people flounder around trying to find games. But the opportunity is there, I think, and Paizo has done their part in providing it.
What more were you thinking?
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I don't know that I "don't have a plan" so much as the plan remains the same. I fully expect my game nights (and days) to grow, and count on it, in fact. When we first started doing them, we offered a single table once per month, throwing in the occasional Saturday. Two years later we are up to 3 tables twice per month and that Saturday seats 6 tables throughout the day. Ultimately, if PFS is running every Monday of the month - and two Saturdays - as a result of the Beginner Box, then the goal of expansion will have been achieved, I think. That's going from 144 tables per year (currently) to 300, dedicating only the space I currently give to it. If I add a time slot to Saturdays (we're open til midnight), and account for the occasional "fifth" Saturday of a month, I have room for another 84 tables on the schedule.
144 --> 300 --> 384
Considering the varied faces that show up for games currently (there are only a few "hard cores" that make every single game day), I think that's reasonable growing room.
If stores and organizers aren't similarly prepared, then you are correct, I suppose: there could be some hard feelings as people flounder around trying to find games. But the opportunity is there, I think, and Paizo has done their part in providing it.
What more were you thinking?
First off, PFS at your store came up during a discussion on ENWorld a few days ago and I (privately) heard very nice things about your store, too. Play Space + Cafe = Heaven was the quote I remember. So sounds like your store is a great place for PFS!
You may have the time and space in your store to accommodate this increase in tables. If so, great. That's awesome.
But (gently now) does JP Chapleau actually have the GMs to do it? Build it and they will come is not a plan -- it's a hope. A well founded hope, perhaps; a well resourced hope, even. But not the entirety of a plan.
Don't get me wrong: from your perspective as a store owner -- I don't think much more can reasonably be expected of you. My question was directed more to Paizo, GMs and Venture-Captains then store owners -- though I am gratified that you have a plan to make the play space attractive and available as may be required.
I'm not sure about the personnel resources that PFS at your store has. It sounds, from all that I have recently read, that your store is admirably suited to the task in terms of being a go-to venue. That said, you still need the GMs to add those 84 slots your store can offer (assuming, without deciding, that that will be enough).
In my case, thinking about organizing just one or two recurring events with far more players? Finding the GMs is going to be difficult. VERY difficult.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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But (gently now) does JP Chapleau actually have the GMs to do it? Build it and they will come is not a plan -- it's a hope. A well founded hope, perhaps; a well resourced hope, even. But not the entirety of a plan.
I'm not sure about the personnel resources that PFS at your store has. It sounds, from all that I have recently read, that your store is admirably suited to the task in terms of being a go-to venue. That said, you still need the GMs to add those 84 slots your store can offer (assuming, without deciding, that that will be enough).
In my case, thinking about organizing just one or two recurring events with far more players? Finding the GMs is going to be difficult. VERY difficult.
Fair enough question. I'll address it (and speak a little for JP).
First, I'll admit that it is a problem for others that I take for granted. In two years I have only once had to threaten "we'll cancel the table if we don't get a GM." I received an immediate reply to that threat: someone stepped up. It's pretty unusual for us to not have GMs for all our tables long before we have full lists of players. In fact, I often have to turn down requests, as I have multiple people wanting to run the same table. So, yes, I think my store has the available GM pool to handle it. However, I also take pains to offer incentives to them beyond GM credit, and I'm not shy about asking someone who plays a lot to take the plunge and run a table.
By the way: I currently only run 144 tables per year. I can expand easily to the 300, then to the 384, if necessary.
For JP's part, he does an admirable job of being what he is supposed to be: a facilitator. It is not his job to do my work. And by "my work" I mean coordinating PFS, as I'm the one who sets things up for my store. If I have a problem, I go to JP. If he has said that he's available to take a table, I'll go to him if no one else takes it. If I have a GM who gets an entire table's worth of complaints about how lousy he was, I go to JP with the comments. If I have something that I think needs to be brought to Paizo's attention (and these boards are a bad spot for that "something") then I bring it up with him. If I'm at a loss for who to tap as "the next GM" then I ask him for ideas. To me, this is what a Venture Captain is for. If others believe that VCs are supposed to run PFS for them, I think they're missing the point.
So, to what I think is the heart of your concern: getting GMs to run tables.
Coordinators need to make this a priority. Find the people who are playing in your games who you think would make GMs and start asking them to give it a go. Provide incentive to them beyond GM credit toward a character. You can give them gift certificates for future gaming purposes. Or perhaps offer those who volunteer to GM first rights to sign up for newly offered tables. Perhaps offer a "points" structure where GMs earn points toward future goodies (custom miniatures, t-shirts, a seat at the next 4-star GM module the first time it's offered). Start a "GM camp" where you do a workshop for aspiring GMs.
So far, the only thing we do is gift certificates and t-shirts. The rest of that is on the table, and will likely be taken up when I need it.
I'm also going to point to a post I made last year. It was during a debate with someone else who runs a store, but the points I made in this particular post are valid to this conversation, I think.
What I said about PFS in stores.
I hope the replay debate in that thread can be ignored now that there are so many modules to choose from. Again, what I had to say about recruiting players and GMs are valid, and still things that I practice to this day. And, as I alluded to above, there are more ideas that I have not implemented, yet, and I think they would work.
Would I like to see Paizo take the approach toward player/GM incentive that Wizards of the Coast has in the past? Yes. It'd be awesome to see them come up with some sort of rewards program. I won't expect it, however, and will come up with my own ideas.
Out of curiosity, where do you play? Do you use a specific venue? If so, do you have a relationship with that venue's proprietor? Use that resource, too.
So, to summarize:
1 - Be prepared.
2 - Make finding GMs a priority. Do this well in advance of actual play.
3 - Offer them incentives outside what is already in place.
4 - Don't be shy about recruiting people who play more often than the average player.
5 - Use your Venture Captain and store proprietors for help in these tasks.
6 - Ask me for advice. I'm mouthy, and gaming promotion is one of my favorite subjects, so I'm always available for this kind of conversation.
Thanks for the accolades, by the way. I hope I'm helping with your thoughts. Obviously, if you want more, I'll be willing to chime in.
[Edited for a math correction]
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In Atlanta, we have 6 store locations, as well as two other private locations where we currently host PFS. We could easily double our size and be ready to go.
I hope your predictions come true. We in Atlanta are ready. We have 3-4 more stores we could add if we really wanted to expand. My Asst. Coordinators and store liaisons have done an excellent job helping to market and recruit new players and GMs alike. We have steadily grown from 6 to 151 players.
What I would like to hear from you, Steelwind, is what kind of ideas you would have for an expansion plan if you were the one in charge?
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It is not his job to do my work. And by "my work" I mean coordinating PFS, as I'm the one who sets things up for my store.
You are in the vast minority of store owners then. Most barely pay attention to RPG Organized Play and rely upon their local PFS event organizer to do nearly ALL of those things. The event organizer, in turn, relies from time to time upon a VC (when he or she has one -- many do not).
So while I won't go so far as to describe your situation as unique, I will go so far as to describe it as "rare". There is only one of you per booster pack :)
Okay, I take it back. YOU have not only the hosting resources to do it -- but you have the GMs to make it happen and apparently have the organizational skills, too. You have a plan.
I'm not so sure that can be said by many others though :)
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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It is not his job to do my work. And by "my work" I mean coordinating PFS, as I'm the one who sets things up for my store.You are in the vast minority of store owners then. Most barely pay attention to RPG Organized Play and rely upon their local PFS event organizer to do nearly ALL of those things. The event organizer, in turn, relies from time to time upon a VC (when he or she has one -- many do not).
So while I won't go so far as to describe your situation as unique, I will go so far as to describe it as "rare". There is only one of you per booster pack :)
I hear this occasionally. Well, okay, a lot...*blush*
But, seriously, that's why I'm asking where you play. And not just you, I guess, but anyone who is doing coordination. If you're going to be bringing customers to their store via PFS, why would they not want to help you?
I think, if you were to ask, you would get a more positive response than you may, at first, think. Point at their event calendar (after finding a blank spot) and say, "I want to put PFS there. I'm going to charge each player $2, and I'm going to use that money to buy gift certificates from you to give to the GMs. Know anyone who wants to GM?" I'll bet they help you out.
Okay, I take it back. YOU have not only the hosting resources to do it -- but you have the GMs to make it happen and apparently have the organizational skills, too. You have a plan.
Sweet! Do I get cool theme music to go with it?
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Seriously: what if this actually works?
I'm counting on it!
I'm hoping it will bring more players into our stores, more players to our game conventions, build the local gamer community, including opportunities for home games.
I've been spending the last few months encouraging my local players to try their hand at GMing, by offering them GM-only sessions of new-release scenarios so having played them, they're prepared to GM them at local gamedays and other events. The First Steps intro series are a lot of fun, and perfect scenarios to have prepared for when the Pathfinder RPG Beginners Box hits the stores in October, and they're free! so there's no reason not to be prepared for this. We should all be welcoming and anticipating new players at our tables now, but particularly when the Beginners Box hits stores in October, and again after Christmas.
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I would hope that Paizo discussed this with the venture captains at Gen Con and started the ball rolling. However, (IMO) the VC's are spread too thin already. In Ohio, Russell has the Southwest corner covered (Cincy area), but Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton and Toledo are left to their own devices.
All of those cities hosted large organized play conventions during the life of Living Greyhawk. If Paizo can attract previous RPGA players who have given up on D&D due to 4e, the number of hardcore players could soar.
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I would hope that Paizo discussed this with the venture captains at Gen Con and started the ball rolling. However, (IMO) the VC's are spread too thin already. In Ohio, Russell has the Southwest corner covered (Cincy area), but Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton and Toledo are left to their own devices.
I agree that VCs are spread a little thin at the moment, but you have to have people volunteer to step up and fill those shoes and meet the minimum requirements. One of the tougher ones to fulfill is traveling to either Gencon or Paizo Con each year.
If you know anyone who would like to become a VC, encourage them to apply. I'm sure Mark would more than welcome new VCs to help grow PFS.
Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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Actually, if there were more VCs, the travel requirement might be lessened a little. Some states are bigger then others with population densities spread over a wide area. Our VC, Jason Roeder, does a great job, but Missouri is huge. There is no way he can make all the conventions and still hold a job... it is still a volunteer position.
I did submit for a VC position to cover the Southeast Missouri/Southern Illinois area awhile back... no word yet. I know that it's just a matter of time before VC expansion becomes a requirement though.
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Actually, if there were more VCs, the travel requirement might be lessened a little. Some states are bigger then others with population densities spread over a wide area. Our VC, Jason Roeder, does a great job, but Missouri is huge. There is no way he can make all the conventions and still hold a job... it is still a volunteer position.
I did submit for a VC position to cover the Southeast Missouri/Southern Illinois area awhile back... no word yet. I know that it's just a matter of time before VC expansion becomes a requirement though.
I wholeheartedly agree with you Arnim. I too hope we see some additional VCs added before long. I would love to see Boston, Montreal, East and West Tennessee, SE Missouri/Southern Illinois, South Carolina, and several other areas that desperately need the attention of a dedicated VC.
And, trust me, I know all about it being a volunteer position and not being able to make all conventions. There is no way I can attend any south Georgia, Alabama, South Carolina, or northern Flordia conventions. I simply don't have the money or time to do so.
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I agree that VCs are spread a little thin at the moment, but you have to have people volunteer to step up and fill those shoes and meet the minimum requirements. One of the tougher ones to fulfill is traveling to either Gencon or Paizo Con each year.
If you know anyone who would like to become a VC, encourage them to apply. I'm sure Mark would more than welcome new VCs to help grow PFS.
I thought Joshua put VC applications on hold and they were never restarted? I'm expecting the new campaign coordinator to make a push in that area, but we aren't seeing any progress in that area. (The posting hasn't shown up in the employment opportunities page yet. It may very well be that the decision has already been made to bring in a VC or other known person into the job, but from the outside it looks like nothing is happening).
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I thought Joshua put VC applications on hold and they were never restarted? I'm expecting the new campaign coordinator to make a push in that area, but we aren't seeing any progress in that area. (The posting hasn't shown up in the employment opportunities page yet. It may very well be that the decision has already been made to bring in a VC or other known person into the job, but from the outside it looks like nothing is happening).
They where never put on Hold, in fact if anything when Hyrum came on some restrictions where lifted and they opened it up to Cities that where not included in the Original list.
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Back to Steel's OP - if it does work, we can expect to have a better deal in getting on the calendar. Right now it's Magic et al. that gets the prime nights, but if the Pathfinder buzz increases, maybe that will change. Now the PF is beating DnD, the next one to pass will be Magic! ;)
At our store, the owner provides GM rewards to anyone running anything (including coordinating card games), without a charge required - this has made it easier to recruit PFS GMs for sure, but means the schedule is pretty full - they actually opened late Monday nights just to accomodate PFS since there wans't room on the schedule. If we get deluged with new folks, we'll need to get into more stores, as three tables is all we can shoehorn into our store. We're running weekly, so we could convicne some folks to play less often, I suppose, but that obviously isn't the best way to handle it.
Besides adding more stores, I've been thinking about running special "First Steps" days at a different site as a gateway to "real" PFS - I really think that new plyers such as Steel describes would benefit from the background and detail in those modules as an intro to PFS, rather than just joining into a Season 2 or 3 game with vets. Maybe those could run weekly, but start up every two weeks or so...
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Back to Steel's OP - if it does work, we can expect to have a better deal in getting on the calendar. Right now it's Magic et al. that gets the prime nights, but if the Pathfinder buzz increases, maybe that will change. Now the PF is beating DnD, the next one to pass will be Magic! ;)
Beat out M:TG in terms of sales revenue? While I sure as hell like your optimism, I don't those are s+@$ake mushrooms you just garnished your salad with! (Might want to hunker down in a tidy room and ride it out :))
At our store, the owner provides GM rewards to anyone running anything (including coordinating card games), without a charge required - this has made it easier to recruit PFS GMs for sure, but means the schedule is pretty full - they actually opened late Monday nights just to accomodate PFS since there wans't room on the schedule. If we get deluged with new folks, we'll need to get into more stores, as three tables is all we can shoehorn into our store. We're running weekly, so we could convicne some folks to play less often, I suppose, but that obviously isn't the best way to handle it.Besides adding more stores, I've been thinking about running special "First Steps" days at a different site as a gateway to "real" PFS - I really think that new plyers such as Steel describes would benefit from the background and detail in those modules as an intro to PFS, rather than just joining into a Season 2 or 3 game with vets. Maybe those could run weekly, but start up every two weeks or so...
Now we're talking. Add more tables, expand events to more stores in the area, get more grass roots GMs involved in organizing same from the ground up. Exactamundo. THIS is exactly the kind of stuff we need to be talking about here as a provisional "contingency plan"!
By the way, you have a cool Scenario Index on your website. I like it a lot. Mind if I steal it for our own?
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Yeah, these sparkly lights are distracting me... :)
Seriously, though - PFS doesn't have to beat Magic in terms of overall sales - just in terms of sales *during PFS sessions* as compared to other game sessions. The more folks who buy Paizo stuff at their game store PFS night, the better that night's cash register looks, and the better Paizo looks in terms of attracting night-time players who spend money. I try and get my players to buy their drinks etc. from the store, and also to buy maps, supplements, and the eventual Paizo minis during PFS sessions. Every little bit helps!
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Beat out M:TG in terms of sales revenue? While I sure as hell like your optimism...Back to Steel's OP - if it does work, we can expect to have a better deal in getting on the calendar. Right now it's Magic et al. that gets the prime nights, but if the Pathfinder buzz increases, maybe that will change. Now the PF is beating DnD, the next one to pass will be Magic! ;)
I like your optimism, too, but it ain't happening. Even if we start charging an exorbitant seat fee for PFS players (and they pay it), a Magic event can seat 24 people in the same space that two RPG tables are run. A draft costs $11 per player, and they wind up buying sleeves and dice, too, so each of those players is worth an awful lot of $$. RPG players would have to do a lot of running to catch up to that kind of head start, and I don't know a lot of RPG players who like to run.
By the way, you have a cool Scenario Index on your website. I like it a lot. Mind if I steal it for our own?
I want to steal your whole page. You okay with that? Or link to it...
[EDIT] Fixed a quoting flub...
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By the way, you have a cool Scenario Index on your website. I like it a lot. Mind if I steal it for our own?I want to steal your whole page. You okay with that? Or link to it...
** spoiler omitted **
[EDIT] Fixed a quoting flub...
Thanks, but the website isn't my work - I'll get the designer to give me the OK about usage. In the meantime, feel free to link to it until he chimes in here.
(I know we're not going to actually beat out M:tG, but the better PFS nights look at the till, the more cred we gain with the store owners. Every little bit helps.)
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By the way, you have a cool Scenario Index on your website. I like it a lot. Mind if I steal it for our own?
I want to steal your whole page. You okay with that? Or link to it...
By all means, steal away. It's flattering. If you copy it, just fire me a link so I can steal any of your improvements. (http://winnipegpathfinder.weebly.com/index.html)
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Seriously: what if this actually works? What if the Beginner Box actually succeeds and becomes a gateway game for 10,000-20,000+ BRAND new Pathfinder players between October, 2011 and, say, March, 2012.
We will do the same thing we've been doing with the existing rapid growth, keep encouraging new GMs... not much else you can do. I'm not sure what other kind of 'plan' you can put into play. Most groups I know of are already working at encouraging new GMs.
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When I first started working at my software company, I asked the same question, because we were unprepared for huge success.
The answer is (if it does happen), it's great news for the company and they're adapt when (or if) the time comes.
As it turns out, my company had good growth and explosive growth two years, and we adapted, mostly because we had the $$$ to adapt.
Regarding the success of the beginner box, I have the following thoughts:
1) I think mostly kids will get the BB and I think most kids will end up playing it in their basement, like we did. I don't think this will cause any problems.
2) The reason the red box (back in 1978?) did so well is that it was EVERYWHERE and at the time there were very limited games on the market (especially RPGs, there were none). If Paizo could get their box into Walmart and/or other retail chains, THEN you would see more of the explosive growth you're talking about. In a hobby store, without Pathfinder support in the hobby store, the BB is just another boxed game among dozens, it will get lost.
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I thought Joshua put VC applications on hold and they were never restarted? I'm expecting the new campaign coordinator to make a push in that area, but we aren't seeing any progress in that area. (The posting hasn't shown up in the employment opportunities page yet. It may very well be that the decision has already been made to bring in a VC or other known person into the job, but from the outside it looks like nothing is happening).I agree that VCs are spread a little thin at the moment, but you have to have people volunteer to step up and fill those shoes and meet the minimum requirements. One of the tougher ones to fulfill is traveling to either Gencon or Paizo Con each year.
If you know anyone who would like to become a VC, encourage them to apply. I'm sure Mark would more than welcome new VCs to help grow PFS.
I'd Love to be a Venture Captain for the Dayton Area! the only PFS games showing up on the site is the SOGG one we run the 1st sunday of each month, been running it since march, with 1 table, we are up to 3! now as of Oct. Its defantly growing in the area, and I hope it continues o do so
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Michael: I asked a similar question and Mike gave this answer:
You could always assign them numbers. But, you can also enter the info as normal, with your number as GM, and with no players for the event, similar to the overseer GM of a special.