Gnoll as PC

[Lev]

Hello everyone (and please excuse my bad english),

I have a question, especially for James Jacobs, but anyone can answer too. :)

I'd like to know some "official rules" or at least have some suggestions to make a balanced PC gnoll race with no racial hit dice.

The 3.5 rules for PC gnoll were something like that :
- 2 racial HD
- +4 strength, +2 constitution, -2 intelligence, -2 charisma
- +1 to natural AC
- darkvision

Except the +4 in strength, nothing terrific and overpowered.

I tried to make a balanced PFRPG conversion of this race :
- +2 strength, +2 constitution, -2 charisma
- +1 to natural AC
- darkvision
- immunity to pugwampis' unluck aura

But the race is now weaker than the core PC races and almost flavorless. I want the gnoll to be as attractive as an elf or a dwarf. It lacks several things compared to other 0-HD races published so far : a bonus to 1 or 2 skills par exemple or a bonus to save throw.

So, what do you suggest me for this race ?

Does anyone has played a PFRPG with a PC gnoll one day ? (I am thinking of a gnoll PC in Legacy of Fire for exemple...)

[Lev]

Any suggestion ?

[Tim4488]

Here's what I'm using:

+2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Int
Darkvision
+2 Intimidate, Perception
Scent
+2 Initiative

You could just as easily use -2 Cha instead of -2 Int, though. It's not a straight conversion by any means, but I feel like it keeps the flavor of gnolls pretty well. Feel free to swap Scent for +1 Natural Armor if you prefer.

[Lev]

Thank for the reply !

Tim4488 wrote:

Here's what I'm using:

+2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Int
Darkvision
+2 Intimidate, Perception
Scent
+2 Initiative

You could just as easily use -2 Cha instead of -2 Int, though. It's not a straight conversion by any means, but I feel like it keeps the flavor of gnolls pretty well. Feel free to swap Scent for +1 Natural Armor if you prefer.

Hummmmm... +2 in WIS, why not... A race good for perception and survival. A race more instinctive and nature-wise than "brainiac". It fit well with the concept.

The scent power is a really nice idea for a hyena-like-super-predator like a gnoll. It is strange that core gnolls do not have it (furthermore, hyena have it).

However, I think +2 perception + 1 bonus from WIS + scent is a bit too much.
And I don't like very much the +2 on initiative. I will keep the +1 to natural AC instead.

So :
- +2 STR, +2 WIS, -2 INT (+2 CON, -2 CHA)
- Darkvision
- Scent
- Immunity to pugwampis' unluck aura
- +1 to natural AC

For the skill bonus... Intimidate or survival ?

[Tim4488]

For the record, I was using this thread as a guide. The way you have them built now, they're actually a 10 pt race (assuming Scent as a 4 point ability, which is what I did), so they're fine without a skill bonus (I figure immunity to pugwampis' unluck aura is, uh, HIGHLY situational). That said, if you're comfortable with an 11 pt race (I am, generally), a +2 bonus to one skill is totally valid.

... In retrospect, I'm not entirely sure why I DIDN'T go with Survival over Perception. May need to go back and change that, thanks.

[Seldriss]

I would suggest:

+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Cha
Darkvision
+1 natural armor
Intimidate +2, Perception +2

The +4 Str and -2 Int could work but Gnolls don't look so strong to me.
+2 Str seems enough especially with +2 Con, which make them good for combat and it avoids the Int penalty.

Scent and a bite attack would make sense but Gnolls don't have these in D&D or Pathfinder, so probably not.

[James Jacobs]

To a certain extent, this (and similar questions) will be answered and addressed in the upcoming book, "Advanced Race Guide."

The big thing that's kind of overpowering about gnolls is the fact that they have racial hit dice, which more or less gives them a 1 level "head start" over zero-HD races. If you want to strip that out and just go with their core abilities, you'd get the following:

- +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, –2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma
- +1 to natural AC
- darkvision
- immunity to pugwampis' unluck aura

...I think that'll be fine, honestly. The natural armor bonus might not seem like that huge a deal, but it's more than ANY core race gets currently, so in a party composed of core races, your gnoll basically gets a free +1 boost to his AC over anything else. That's actually pretty significant. And those penalties to Int and Cha are painful if you play, say, a bard or a wizard or a sorcerer or whatever, but if you play a barbarian or fighter or ranger or even a rogue or something else, the strength bonus is pretty nice. Overall, I think that whole combo gets it quite nicely up on par with the core races—this version of the gnoll is actually BETTER in certain examples (barbarian in particular) than any core race.

Immunity to pugwampi unluck is mostly irrelevant for balance factor, by the way. It's certainly not as bad-ass as elven immunity to ghoul paralysis, and even THAT's not major enough for us to mention in the elf traits in the core rulebook, after all.

As for "flavorless" I disagree. We've done plenty to give gnolls more flavor—check out Pathfinder #19 and Dark Markets in particular.

[Lev]

Tim4488 wrote:

For the record, I was using this thread as a guide.

Thank for the link. Very useful guide. I will chek my homebrew no psionic githzerai version with it.

James Jacobs wrote:

To a certain extent, this (and similar questions) will be answered and addressed in the upcoming book, "Advanced Race Guide."

The big thing that's kind of overpowering about gnolls is the fact that they have racial hit dice, which more or less gives them a 1 level "head start" over zero-HD races. If you want to strip that out and just go with their core abilities, you'd get the following:

- +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, –2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma
- +1 to natural AC
- darkvision
- immunity to pugwampis' unluck aura

...I think that'll be fine, honestly. The natural armor bonus might not seem like that huge a deal, but it's more than ANY core race gets currently, so in a party composed of core races, your gnoll basically gets a free +1 boost to his AC over anything else. That's actually pretty significant. And those penalties to Int and Cha are painful if you play, say, a bard or a wizard or a sorcerer or whatever, but if you play a barbarian or fighter or ranger or even a rogue or something else, the strength bonus is pretty nice. Overall, I think that whole combo gets it quite nicely up on par with the core races—this version of the gnoll is actually BETTER in certain examples (barbarian in particular) than any core race.

Immunity to pugwampi unluck is mostly irrelevant for balance factor, by the way. It's certainly not as bad-ass as elven immunity to ghoul paralysis, and even THAT's not major enough for us to mention in the elf traits in the core rulebook, after all.

As for "flavorless" I disagree. We've done plenty to give gnolls more flavor—check out Pathfinder #19 and Dark Markets in particular.

Thank for the reply ! By flavorless, I mean from a "rules" point of view. My problem is that there is nothing in their stats coming from their society. No hatred, no intimidating, no things like crafty for the kobolds, greed for the dwarves or obsessive for the gnomes.

And a +4 bonus in a stat is not something I like very much...

But I really love what Paizo have done with the gnoll in PF 19 (I have Dark Markets but I haven't read it yet). And that's why I want it to be playable!

(NB : According to VoodooMike's guide, gnolls with these stats will be built with 18 points. Outch !)

[Tim4488]

Keep in mind VoodooMike's guide isn't dogmatic or perfect, weird cases always exist and everything has to be fine-tuned to your home game. For my home game, some of my races came out at 11 points while my altered Halflings have 9 points. That's fine for my players, but some games won't survive that. Gnolls with those stats may look insane according to VoodooMike's system, but that doesn't mean it won't work in your home game - it's all a matter of individual tastes, and whatnot.

[Lev]

Well... I think I just need the future playtest of the ARG ! :-)

My problem with this VoodooMike's guide is how he handle the stats bonus.

Especially that :
- switch a racial stat bonus to the other category. (4 points)

If I go with : +2 STR, +2 CON, +2 WIS, -2 INT, -2 CHA and don't count points for this, it seems balanced for me.

If I ignore the count for stats points :
+2 STR, +2 CON, +2 WIS, -2 INT, -2 CHA (0 points)
+1 to natural AC (4 points)
immunity to pugwampis' unluck aura (0 point)
darkvision (2 points)
--> 6 points.

Maybe can we consider that those bonus stat help specialization and so deserve some points... IMO, it do not deserves more that 2 points.

So :

Gnoll racial traits (friendly PC version) :
- +2 STR, +2 CON, +2 WIS, -2 INT, -2 CHA (2 points)
- +1 to natural AC (4 points)
- immunity to pugwampis' unluck aura (0 point)
- darkvision (2 points)
- +2 survival (1 point)
- +2 perception (1 point)

Of course, with the +2 in WIS, it's +3 to both skill in reality but I don't think it's a big problem.

I don't like to give them +2 in intimidation. That a social skill (and charisma dependent) after all.

For scent, I like the idea but, by core, no gnoll in Golarion have that. I think I will respect that, because special powers is not something like stats or skills : every gnoll have the same special powers but not every gnoll have the same stat and the same skills.
But we can allow them to take the keen scent feat from the APG instead.[

But we can also make alternative racial traits :

Hyena lover/ Dire hyena rider :
- +2 handle animal (with hyena and dire hyena only)
- +2 ride (with dire hyena only)
replace : the +2 perception bonus

Social gnoll / Gnoll slaver
- intimidating prowess feat
- +2 intimidation
- +2 appraise (in order to determine slaves' value only)
- +2 bluff (to sell slaves only)
replace : +2 perception, +2 survival, +1 to natural AC

[Tim4488]

I like the Hyena Lover and Gnoll Slaver a lot. Nicely done.

[Lev]

Tim4488 wrote:

I like the Hyena Lover and Gnoll Slaver a lot. Nicely done.

Thank !