BBC:Treadmill shows medieval armour influenced battles
I wouldn't want to run in that.
And in modern terms, its much more energy efficient to roll with a chest-rig, than traditional H harness webbing that has the pouches around your waist.
History DOES repeat :)
Scientists...
Well, almost all the "historical" armor that we have today is not from the 15th or 16th century but rather from the 17th or even the 18th, when it was en vogue to reenact the famous tjosts and battles in a kind of life action roleplay.
The armor from these late times were extremely durable and thick, weighting 30-50 kg to prevent injury.
The real 16th century armor was much lighter, about 20-30 kg.
The battle of Agincourt was indeed a special case, but rather than the armor being a problem it was several other factors:
- the ground was extremely muddy, slowing the french cavalry considerably
- you can't really protect horses from arrows resulting in a lot of dead horses and french knights on foot
- the armies had chased each other for days in bad weather leaving it's personell quite exhausted before the battle even begun
- the french army did not have a single leader and suffered from several bad tactical choices
All this led to french knights having to slowly wade through a sea of mud on foot facing volley after volley of weighted arrows rather than thundering over a plains on horseback in the time it took the english longbowmen to loose a meagre two or three volleys.
These were the deciding factors, not armor being heavy.
Wearing modern body armor (I was in the army) is restricting and heavy. I can only imagine what it was like to wear something heaver and more binding than modern kevlar. I can easily see why it was impossible for a knight to get on a horse without help.
...it was impossible for a knight to get on a horse without help.
Thats a legend. I wore accurate medieval full plate armor and had no problems mounting a horse. It's the late 17th/18th century LARP armor found in so many castle today that was as heavy as you mean.
Thats a legend. I wore accurate medieval full plate armor and had no problems mounting a horse.
Oh ok.
I'm going to need more detail than that...
How do you know your armour was accurate, and everyone elses suits are merely incorrect reproductions?
Thats a legend. I wore accurate medieval full plate armor and had no problems mounting a horse.Oh ok.
I'm going to need more detail than that...
How do you know your armour was accurate, and everyone elses suits are merely incorrect reproductions?
Because we have actual armors and armor descriptions from various periods. What people think of as full plate is even more of an anachronism for medival than some of the earlier attempts at fire arms. The armor people most likely to see or think of as full plate is ~17th century jousting armor. You're not supposed to fight in it, you;re suppossed to participate in a sport with it. A sport requiring an amazing degree of skill and danger that trained people for the real thing, but a sport none the less.
Further evidence for a 14-16 hand (56 to 64 inches (140 to 160 cm)) war horse is that it was a matter of pride to a knight to be able to vault onto his horse in full armour, without touching the stirrup. This arose not from vanity, but necessity: if unhorsed during battle, a knight would remain vulnerable if unable to mount by himself.
In addition, stronger designs did not make plate heavier; a full harness of musket-proof plate from the 17th century weighed 70 pounds (32 kg), significantly less than 16th century tournament armour.[142] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horses_in_warfare
- I think thats less than what most soldiers are running around with on the field these days in gear.
Regarding the armor getting on a horse thing, I am sure that I was mistaken and all your information is historically accurate.
However, in your haste to correct me you seem to have missed the point entirely.
The point is;
Armor is heavy. Even modern armor, which is drastically lighter with a greater range of motion, is enough to slow someone down.
It's seriously not that great of a stretch to see why it slows someone down (aka reduced movement).
I want to see one of these dudes launching into the saddle wearing the old skool armour, and running around in it.
Anyone got something peer reviewed on Youtube?
I want to see one of these dudes launching into the saddle wearing the old skool armour, and running around in it.
Anyone got something peer reviewed on Youtube?
I have seen people doing accrobatics in SCA armor. Its impressive.
hmm i guess they should maybe a feat? or archtype
i always thought higher str scores should take away some of the penalties like if you have a 26 str somehow even fullplate doesn't put you at a medium load. thought penalties should be for weight allowance instead. i can see max dex just cause of limited movement however
I guess this is reflected in "Armor Training". Of course this begs the question why doesn't paladin get the same ability.
Don't go there :p
Of course, all these medieval guys were as robust, healthy, and strong as modern folks too...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqC_squo6X4
Dirk H. Breiding, Assitant Curator, Department of Arms and Armor, The New york met.
Of course, all these medieval guys were as robust, healthy, and strong as modern folks too...
All the medieval guys no... the knights yes. These were the upper class. They got food, didn't starve, and if you were ravaged from plague or disease you found a different occupation (like your dad bribing the church to get you a job)
Theres a clip of someone running armor that was made for him , its pretty amazing. The flexibility of Henry the 8th armored boot was jaw dropping.
...except a lot of these knights were NOT professional soldiers and men-at-arms, and would not have been as fit etc.
They were often landed gentry and minor nobles etc, so were not all at the same fitness level.
...except a lot of these knights were NOT professional soldiers and men-at-arms, and would not have been as fit etc.
They were often landed gentry and minor nobles etc, so were not all at the same fitness level.
But they trained in arms and armor since the age of 8, spend their days riding (which is not the lazy activity many people seem to think) , hunting, practicing with full contact (blunted) weaponry , wrestling... You had to get a few steps up from merely "landed" to sit around on your keister doing nothing (and then paying for someone to take your place when the king called his armies up)
Well I can accept that you guys have some views and opinions, but I'd really like to see this put to the test.
I'd like to see a relatively fit and healthy guy do a 100yd, and a half mile run. Then do the same thing in a suit of armour and see what his run times do.
Ditto with agility and flexibility outside a few set tumbles.
No way is he moving as fast.
No way is his movement unimpeded.
Wearing modern body armor (I was in the army) is restricting and heavy. I can only imagine what it was like to wear something heaver and more binding than modern kevlar. I can easily see why it was impossible for a knight to get on a horse without help.
I've been reading lately about some of the newer technologies, such as the HULC , which are really exciting. I wonder if this kind of thing will become widely available for laborers and in other civilian contexts. Could be revolutionary.
Well I can accept that you guys have some views and opinions, but I'd really like to see this put to the test.
I'd like to see a relatively fit and healthy guy do a 100yd, and a half mile run. Then do the same thing in a suit of armour and see what his run times do.
Ditto with agility and flexibility outside a few set tumbles.
No way is he moving as fast.
No way is his movement unimpeded.
No one is saying that it doesn't slow you down at all. I mean, you're carrying extra weight, of course you'll move slower.
What we're saying is that you can still mount a horse in full plate, run, and tumble.
The video i posted had a man running in modern reproduction set of full plate that had been made for him and he was booking it fairly well, and someone mounting a horse in real olde time armor by putting his foot in the stirrup
Seeing is believing.
So the thread was actually accurate...
It slowed people down, and as a result, may have decided the course of some battles through being a hinderance. Which is what we see repeated on todays battlefields.
Well I can accept that you guys have some views and opinions, but I'd really like to see this put to the test.
I'd like to see a relatively fit and healthy guy do a 100yd, and a half mile run. Then do the same thing in a suit of armour and see what his run times do.
Ditto with agility and flexibility outside a few set tumbles.
Maybe a job for mythbusters?
So the thread was actually accurate...
The study was accurate. This statement was not.
I can easily see why it was impossible for a knight to get on a horse without help.
Would like to see the Mythbusters on the case then, lets see what was what.
Comparisons between armour in weight and movement, and the effects against differing weapon types.
Cast with traditional methods and technology.
Similarly, weight on the extremities is quite tiring, how much does the armour on those areas fatigue the wearer...