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Have you been following the 437 threads on "Epic Levels: To Be or Not to Be?"
I have.
I think it's time the ruleswonk forum tried their hand at "alternative approaches."
I'll kick it off, but I want your ideas too...
Part of the controversy around post-20th play is that the math starts to break down, and characters at 20th are already basically god-like. Recently, James Jacobs said something about how they could decide not to extend play past 20th and just set the statblocks for demigods and such accordingly.
Cartigan (who I have a total love-hate opinion of, no secret) said something about "special epic classes" which piqued my interest as well.
This all got me thinking ...
Does all advancement in Pathfinder have to be XP and level based? Could we not cap it at 20th, but introduce a different optional reward system that kicks in at higher levels, giving GMs and players the opportunity to choose a high-octane "epic" game instead of the normal progression?
This is a really abstract idea right now, but I'll go into a few ideas how to flesh it out.
It could take the form of acquired templates (Champion of the Gods, Demigod, Godslayer, etc) that required meaningful trials to be passed in game. These could work as kind of "riders" on the CR system or just a +X CR, but the "riders" would basically denote encounters that were inappropriate or just impossible for PCs without the template.
For example, if you're a "only gods can kill gods" type of GM, maybe an encounter could have a CR 22 (Demigod) and the particulars of demi-godhood would be the basic requirement for a chance at success.
This works very well with in-setting plot barriers like the Test of the Starstone.
Anyway, I know it's abstract, but it's a new completely new approach. I am starting to think a completely new approach is needed.
Any takers?
To clarify,
the idea in a nutshell is that instead of lengthening the advancement track and watching the numbers get further and further from ideal, we widen it by creating special categories where the math works the same.
Or... if the power level of a given character over the course of 1-20 is an increasing curve, we create certain categories of character with way steeper curves.
We take 15th-20th or some other range, and make it more powerful by adding abilities and immunities that work within the category, and then define some basic rules for interaction between categories (like "mortals can't hurt gods unless these conditions are met").
It's sort of like "Conditional Challenge Rating" in the same sense that DR is conditional — DR means some weapons do x damage and some do Y... these kinds of Mythic accomplishments create a character who is CR x for some encounters and CR y for another.
This is probably just crazy talk.
Everything you've said seems quite reasonable as one approach to simulating supernal might in Pathfinder. While I think that Special Epic Classes aren't quite right for the task, the game presents us with other tools that might be.
Though Templates are usually kludgy, much of the best 3.5 Epic work stemmed from their use. I have a fanciful notion about super-Archetypes that require not just a specific class but also 16th level to serve as a means of replacing power rather than adding it on top.
(Cartigan's post linked for convenience)
Cartigan's proposal is the best approach I've seen on the boards. I've only ran post-20 campaigns using 3.5; I've tried reward-based advancement and 20+ advancement and I prefer level-based.
I tried something similar to the template idea, but all that did was effectively change the characters types to outsider, undead, or construct and add new abilities. That approach, while engaging at first, got old very quickly and the players felt I was just getting lazy.
The math breaking down is only part of the issue. The other part is that it becomes a nightmare for GMs to present reasonable, adequate challenges consistently without having to do an insane amount of prep/work.
It seems to me, you almost need to craft a setting to support such high level play where the game transitions to which presents a unique set of "high level" environmental/setting challenges when the players "outgrow" the standard setting.
For example, in Golarion, I don't get the sense that there's a lot of things going on that would support a campaign for a group of level 20+ characters to engage in. I could certainly be wrong but that's just the feel I get.
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It sounds like an E20 approach. Basically once you hit 20th level you stop increasing numerically, but still gain feats every "level".
Now you could add a scissors-paper-rock element to that, or a trumping element to that.
Something like "Perfect Strike: Once per day as a full-round action you may take a 20 on an attack roll. This attack ignores all kinds of damage reduction."
Or "Nascent Entity: You are a nascent god. You gain damage reduction 10/epic. Furthermore you cease aging, and can not be killed except by another Nascent entity or above demigod, when you would be reduced to death your body reforms in 1d6+1 weeks."
Basically epic and amazing things that can only be done after you've hit the caps, but don't mess around with numbers or create more spell interaction headaches.
I've considered just applying the following caps on advancement: base attack bonus +20, base saving throw bonus +12, class level 20th in any given class, 400 hit points, skill rank 20 in any given skill. Beyond that, you just keep advancing normally after 20th level.
The math doesn't get much worse than it is at 20th level, since the advancement caps are numbers that can already be achieved at 20th level. And you can still advance after 20th level just fine, gaining new ability increases, class features, feats, and skills. Until somewhere between 25th and 40th level, many of your bonuses also continue to improve, as you haven't yet hit the advancement cap in all categories.
I do essentially that, only I like to use the "best 20" in each category from all the character's levels. Otherwise, you end up with 40th level wizard (+ wizardly prestige classes) AND 40th level fighter (+ fighterly prestige classes), each with +20 BAB and 400 hit points. That just seems wrong to me.
See here for more.
-Cheers
See, that's the thing. I just don't trust myself to do as good a job at this as the boys and girls at Paizo will do. Therefore, I doff my cap to Lincoln, CantFindThePath, Meepo, and any others who take on an A$$LOAD of houserules.
Once I get a character to 20th again, I'll just stop with that character until Paizo does their thing. I'll start another one up, and so on and so forth.
It's not that you guys won't do a bang up job, you may, and I wish you well, but I want the straight dope, from the source.
(Just so this doesn't seem like me being a D!CK, I vote for the E20 type rules as best thus far.)
See, that's the thing. I just don't trust myself to do as good a job at this as the boys and girls at Paizo will do. Therefore, I doff my cap to Lincoln, CantFindThePath, Meepo, and any others who take on an A$$LOAD of houserules.
Actually, Sam, I run with an astonishingly small number of houserules, most of which are published variants, crit/fumble cards, and house rules formatted as feats.
There are definitely some folks around here who run with custom-built RPGs, basically. I'm not one of them. I stick to the RAW and have a long review process before changing/adding rules.
BUMP.
Ahem.
Called it.