My game group had decided to embrace a version of the (in)famous E6 that we dubbed E20 (this does not refer to the E20: System Evolved rules by Gary M. Sarli). Apparently some few others have also taken up this moniker, great minds and all.
So I thought it might be useful to outline our take on Epic 20, and perhaps have a discussion of possible variations, and other options for this type of Epic game.
The basic premise is that no value based on level (be it hit points, caster level, spell access, base attack, sneak attack, smite, base saving throw bonus, whatever), can have a value higher than 20th level. Whatever classes and abilities you have, you always take your "best 20" levels to calculate the values.
Unlike E6 and it's other iterations, you [i]do[/] continue to gain class levels after level 20. However no class can have more than 20 levels (10 for prestige classes). You gain all class features for the levels over 20, but again, you always take your best 20. So a Fighter16/Barbarian10 has a +20 BAB, and a +12 base Fortitude save; he also has fighter bonus feats, weapon training etc. of a 16th level fighter, and rage and other features of a 10th level barbarian (and 10 d12/10 d10 hit dice).
We have long used the fractional BAB and save bonus optional rule (years before it was published in UA), so adding up the "best 20" is second nature to most of us.
That's pretty much it in a nutshell. Anyone have any similar/varying rules for their Epic fix?
So in essence, at 21st level you start gestalting?
So in essence, at 21st level you start gestalting?
You could say that, although it may be misleading. You begin slowly gestalting as your levels over 20 begin to overlap your levels under 20.
Interesting. I'd had a similar idea but wasn't sure how to work it.
As such, I have a question for you. How do you do experience to next level? Do you have a formula or do you just start over for the new class?
Interesting. I'd had a similar idea but wasn't sure how to work it.
As such, I have a question for you. How do you do experience to next level? Do you have a formula or do you just start over for the new class?
Well, I guess we cheat a little. You see we don't much like the xp as written in Pathfinder. At first we adopted it, and immediately embraced the slow advancement option, but it never set very well with those of us who GM'd. Yeah, you can just look up the critter and boom there is the xp, but it is still based on their CR and as soon as you break from the book, you have to figure it out anyway. Plus, we never had a problem with figuring xp in 3.x.
So, we use the D&D 3.5 xp system; thus, you simply need 1000 x current level to advance, just like the ELH.
BTW, we still use slow advancement, we just cut the normal xp in half. ;)
Thanks for your post.
Interesting. I'd had a similar idea but wasn't sure how to work it.
As such, I have a question for you. How do you do experience to next level? Do you have a formula or do you just start over for the new class?
Well, I guess we cheat a little. You see we don't much like the xp as written in Pathfinder. At first we adopted it, and immediately embraced the slow advancement option, but it never set very well with those of us who GM'd. Yeah, you can just look up the critter and boom there is the xp, but it is still based on their CR and as soon as you break from the book, you have to figure it out anyway. Plus, we never had a problem with figuring xp in 3.x.
So, we use the D&D 3.5 xp system; thus, you simply need 1000 x current level to advance, just like the ELH.
BTW, we still use slow advancement, we just cut the normal xp in half. ;)
Thanks for your post.
Thanks for the quick response.
We still use the 3.5 advancement, so your calculations should work just fine. Now we just have to get characters that last to level 20. ;)
Thanks for the quick response.
We still use the 3.5 advancement, so your calculations should work just fine. Now we just have to get characters that last to level 20. ;)
Yeah, I must admit most of our Epic PCs were already there when 3.0 came out. Of our modern games, I think the highest PCs are 12th level. However, I don't see us slowing down, or becoming disgruntled over the high level play because we've seen, used, and abused the old epic rules. A little funky math until level 20 doesn't scare us.
No, what scares us is that our 12th level characters are the children of our original epic PCs. They are around 20 years old.......and they're 12th level! They will be 20th plus very quickly if we play them. That scares us.
Having run a game using my own, independently developed version of essentially these rules, I've got a few suggestions:
The first is for skill points - the "take your best 20 levels" thing works up to a point - and that point is, if you've got 20 levels of rogue, you're never getting any more skills, ever (aside from via int increases). If you're trying to add levels of, say, druid, that means you can't go back and pick up ranks in spellcraft or knowledge: nature or survival.
My suggestion is to cap int bonus (or penalty) to skills at level 20, but allow the character to gain the base skills of whatever class levels they're taking. I might also be tempted to increase skill max ranks - albeit slowly; no more than maybe one point per four or five levels.
The other comment is with rate of level gain; one level at this point is worth very little, so I'd suggest awarding levels in pairs - that way you always get something interesting (a feat if nothing else). (Consider that level 20 rogue again - adding one level of druid to get to level 21 is... anticlimactic at best. Two levels, with the accompanying feat, is much better.)
I also, for the same reasons, capped the xp needed to level; so 40,000xp would buy another two levels once you were in epic territory. Since there's no more exponential progression, either in abilities or the value of the things you're fighting, it seemed reasonable to me to let advancement go linear.
Still, this one's more of a stylistic thing; use it or not as you feel appropriate for your game.
Having run a game using my own, independently developed version of essentially these rules, I've got a few suggestions:
The first is for skill points - the "take your best 20 levels" thing works up to a point - and that point is, if you've got 20 levels of rogue, you're never getting any more skills, ever (aside from via int increases). If you're trying to add levels of, say, druid, that means you can't go back and pick up ranks in spellcraft or knowledge: nature or survival.
My suggestion is to cap int bonus (or penalty) to skills at level 20, but allow the character to gain the base skills of whatever class levels they're taking. I might also be tempted to increase skill max ranks - albeit slowly; no more than maybe one point per four or five levels.
The other comment is with rate of level gain; one level at this point is worth very little, so I'd suggest awarding levels in pairs - that way you always get something interesting (a feat if nothing else). (Consider that level 20 rogue again - adding one level of druid to get to level 21 is... anticlimactic at best. Two levels, with the accompanying feat, is much better.)
I also, for the same reasons, capped the xp needed to level; so 40,000xp would buy another two levels once you were in epic territory. Since there's no more exponential progression, either in abilities or the value of the things you're fighting, it seemed reasonable to me to let advancement go linear.
Still, this one's more of a stylistic thing; use it or not as you feel appropriate for your game.
We cap skill ranks at 20 like everything else. But, you get your skill points for all levels (including those over 20). You simply have to diversify. It is practically impossible for someone to be unable to spend their skill points, and if they are, so be it.
As far as xp progression, we left it alone. We have plenty of levels as it is, and the natural tapering off of advancement is, I think, a plus. It gives you an organic slow down towards final retirement.
I forgot to mention, we figure you gain an effective CR about every 3 epic levels. So, my 33rd level Cavalier/Fighter should be challenged by CR24 encounters.
Thanks for your comments.
Ok, after reading through your notes and comments, here's my idea:
E20: Characters can advance past level 20, with the following rules:
No specific class advances past 20th level, no Prestige Class advances past 10th level. While there is no limit to the character levels a character may have, there are maximums to bab, saves and stat modifiers and limits on class combinations:
Class combos are limited by alignment and the normal multiclasing rules; ie no subclass or alternate class pairings.
Maximum BAB Adds: +20/+15/+10/+5
Maximum Save Adds: +12
Maximum Stat Modifiers: +20
Feats continue to accumulate at 1 feat per every 2 levels.
Ability Score increases continue at the rate of +1 every four levels.
Further bonuses gained for bab and saves count as favored class points for that class.
Ability Score bonuses after +20 become feat slots.
Level advancement past 20th is the amount needed to go from 1st to 2nd level at that advancement rate x level.
So: 3.5 lvl x 1000, fast lvl x 1300, medium lvl x 2000, slow lvl x 3000.
This way the character always gets something, and no normal level benefits go to waste.
Comments? Suggestions?
Ok, after reading through your notes and comments, here's my idea:
E20: Characters can advance past level 20, with the following rules:
No specific class advances past 20th level, no Prestige Class advances past 10th level. While there is no limit to the character levels a character may have, there are maximums to bab, saves and stat modifiers and limits on class combinations:
Class combos are limited by alignment and the normal multiclasing rules; ie no subclass or alternate class pairings.
Maximum BAB Adds: +20/+15/+10/+5
Maximum Save Adds: +12
Maximum Stat Modifiers: +20Feats continue to accumulate at 1 feat per every 2 levels.
Ability Score increases continue at the rate of +1 every four levels.
Further bonuses gained for bab and saves count as favored class points for that class.
Ability Score bonuses after +20 become feat slots.
Level advancement past 20th is the amount needed to go from 1st to 2nd level at that advancement rate x level.
So: 3.5 lvl x 1000, fast lvl x 1300, medium lvl x 2000, slow lvl x 3000.
This way the character always gets something, and no normal level benefits go to waste.
Comments? Suggestions?
That's cool if that works for you. I like to keep it simpler and not introduce any new math or progressions.
Since there are virtually no "dead levels" in any classes in PF, I think everyone already gets something every level (plus, skill ranks!). If you are raising a class past 20th that completely overlaps your non-epic levels, I think it's a waste. I don't mind not getting gobs of new things in these levels, the goal for me and my group is just to be able to play our favorite characters with the tools we have.
As far as the xp, I think it's smoother to use the 3.5 progression out of the book and just cut xp awards by 1/2 or 1/3.
-Cheers