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Again, this is a concept I'd love to see further explored. This really would help the monk feel more....monkish.
The only concern that leaps out at me at the moment is the time involved, which can be prohibitive depending on the campaign(and in some APs by default). I should probably look at crafting times to see how that balances out though.
I presume points of Spell Resistance from Secret Techniques stack with the Spell Resistance gained from levels of Monk? In a formal write-up, that should probably be mentioned specifically.
Due to the nature of this ability, please note the current balance issues and possibly reflect them in an increased price or some other disadvantage..
-This does not require a feat to perform unlike all other magic item creation.
-These techniques cannot be sundered through standard means.
-These techniques do not take up a slot, and are thus superior to other items.
-It is impossible to disarm or steal the items from the character in any way.
-Disjunction does not remove the ability from the character regardless of the check.
-No spell is needed for
Suggestions for balance..
-Amnesia/Charm effects possibly reducing or removing these abilities similar to how a disjunction can affect them.
-Increased cost based on perceived value of the techniques.
-Some sort of diminishing return that make learning a large amount of techniques difficult.
-Causing one of the previous "Advantages" to go away by requiring what was listed.. ex: Instead of it not requiring a feat, have it require a specific feat.
Those are the only concerns that I have regarding balance of these techniques.
As suggested, they'd be much more balanced if they..
1) Required a Feat in order to develop the techniques..
2) Even with the feat, required Market Value of the items in training cost. (To offset the fact that they cannot be sundered or removed from you in any way)
3) Have it be affected by Disjunction, Wish, and Miracle all the same. If not affected by Disjunction then at least affected by an appropriate level mind control/mind wipe type of spell.
4) Pick a slot that they're assigned to, so you're unable to layer a magical item in that slot.
5) In regards to any "unarmed weapon bonuses" similar to the Amulet of Mighty Fists, I'd suggest functioning by the Amulet's price scaling, however I'd raise the maximum bonus up to +10 total.
Thank you for the quick reply..
On your list of notes..
1) I understand that the ones making the technique areunable to sell it or give it away, and that there is a skill that must be invested.. however, using Master Craftsman as an example.. Craft must be invested in and it requires 2 to 3 feats to produce items from it.
Taking Master Craftsman allows you to qualify for Wondrous Item and Craft Magical Arms/Armor using your craft rank as your caster level.
Because of this, the Monk comes out slightly ahead even when considering that they cannot sell the techniques they invest in.
2) Thanks, did not notice you ran the numbers for Slotless items.
3) I understand that the technique cannot be traded out, but not everyone would consider that a hinderance.. as most people rarely trade out their magical items especially when they have their character planned out at character creation. Allowing them to upgrade their items through further research is still a major benefit.
4) I do not believe that 3 Balances out 4.
5) It may not make sense for Disjunction to break the techniques, but for other spells that affect memory, I would disagree. I think that there should be a component on a memory affecting spell that allows it to affect techniques to balance out the fact that Disjunction can't break it.
6) When it comes to AoMF it affects all attacks, not just dual wielding. It affects kicks, bites, headbutts, punches, elbows, knee, pretty much any other attack you can think of. I'm okay with the value on the normal AoMF, however for those who think it's too high I'm cool with the base requirement on any monk enhancement to unarmed damage to be the cost of dual weapons, not the cost of a single weapon in any circumstance.
7) As long as it's a feat, I feel that it should be one that's added to the Monk's Bonus Feat list, not something they simply get for free.
I would like to suggest you use ranks in Kn(History), rather than rating. Rating can be affected too easily. For example, Trait Bonuses, Class Skill Bonuses, Skill Focus bonuses, etc. Ranks are Ranks, regardless of any other bonuses, and are capped by level.
I would like to suggest you use ranks in Kn(History), rather than rating. Rating can be affected too easily. For example, Trait Bonuses, Class Skill Bonuses, Skill Focus bonuses, etc. Ranks are Ranks, regardless of any other bonuses, and are capped by level.
Good catch, I was assuming that when she said rating she meant Ranks since it was the only way it made any balance-sense.
Edit: Looks like she caught it just a few seconds before my reply heh.
I would personally suggest rather than secret knowledge, based on knowledge checks, that you allow tattoo investment.
Require a feat that allows magic to be put into the tattoo's. The cost would be the reagents used to make the inks. This keeps it similar to other abilities, it costs a feat to do. It allows the 'tattooing' of any magic item directly onto the monk, but it takes up a 'slot'. Tattoo's on the feat take up items that would normally be shoes/slippers/boots. If the monk wants multiple abilities, then the tattoo's become more complex and expensive (same as putting two boots together would be for enchantment). This also makes sense as the monk's existing tattoo's have to be balanced with the new ones.
I would not allow weapon enhancements at all. That's way too powerful, with the monk picking up any MW weapon and using it as a magic weapon. Instead, you should allow a full-body slot-less tattoo to replace Amulet of Mighty Fists. Same with natural armor. I imagine the look very much like the Sorceresses tattoos, or the Avatar Airbender tattoo's.
This keeps it within the system, uses the same or very similar rules, and has them balanced with everyone else's stuff. You still end up with an equipmentless monk, but it's not as unbalanced as everyone else. I see this as a secret used by monestaries, to improve their monks in case of attack by outsiders. Very few outsiders would be allowed to have such tattoo's, so it would be mostly a monk type thing.
Tattoo Stuff..
I've always been a fan of Monk tattoos, and agree with you here, however I'd actually keep the Natural Armor/AoMF as a Neck Slot tattoo.. I'd just follow the rules for an unrelated enchantment when stacking on the Natural Armor onto the AoMF effect. I'm cool with AoMF affecting all Monk Unarmed Attacks like normal and stacking up to a max of +10 following the rules of normal magical items..
As always, it's possible to continue to touch up the tattoos adding more ink/magic to increase their effects. They would follow the same rules as everyone else.
When it comes to Monks that do not want tattoos because they don't like the idea of their monk being Inked, it's always possible to use other descriptors to the effect, such as annoited with sacred oils, etc.. same general concept.
Also, I'm not trying to hate on anyone elses system..
As long as you follow several rules I'm cool with it..
1) Takes up a slot
2) Provides similar effects to magical items
3) Can be dispelled and disjunctioned
4) Does not function in areas of anti-magic
5) Can be sundered
6) Follows similar cost rules to magical items
7) Follows similar crafting rules as magical items (feat + caster level)
If you do all of that, I don't care how you describe it or what it's called.
Then you won't be happy with what I'm designing. It makes no sense for techniques to have a slot or be sundered. My goal is to represent the idea that monks elevate their bodies to be weapons of war. That's a very different paradigm from covering themselves in magical tattoos.
My only problem with this..
Why do you believe that Monks should.. for free (feat wise).. get the ability to create things superior to magical items?
It makes no sense that any class should get this.
An item that cannot be disjunctioned, sundered, disarmed, stolen, or otherwise removed from a person voluntarily or otherwise.. without the use of the Wish spell? That doesn't take a slot and can be layered with magical items? That doesn't weigh anything because it's not a physical item?.. And we haven't even brought up what your stance is on detecting or identifying the properties of these styles are.. through detect magic, identify, arcane sight, etc..
Why should Monks get something that much more powerful then everyone else is capable of doing? Just curious.
Why do you believe that Monks should.. for free (feat wise).. get the ability to create things superior to magical items?
They are trying to work out a mechanic for the "gearless" monk to be a viable party member and not be handicapped without the equipment most normal adventures require. I'd point you at the UM Vow of Poverty thread. This is their attempt to do just that.
For a homebrew game, I find the basic system idea fine, I don't think every PC would be scrapping other concepts and rushing to make these, but it does have a nice appeal for certain concepts in its own right.
They are trying to work out a mechanic for the "gearless" monk to be a viable party member and not be handicapped without the equipment most normal adventures require. I'd point you at the UM Vow of Poverty thread. This is their attempt to do just that.
For a homebrew game, I find the basic system idea fine, I don't think every PC would be scrapping other concepts and rushing to make these, but it does have a nice appeal for certain concepts in its own right.
My issue is not with the concept of a gearless monk. My issue is with the fact, that as suggested it is superior in nearly every way to a character that had magical items. There is no viable downside to this suggestion as compared to magical items..
When you can get all of the bonuses, and more.. and less of the downsides then something else.. it's a bit unbalanced.
My issue was with the balance, not with the concept.
Lets make a weighted chart to explain what I mean..
Pro's
1) Unable to Sunder
2) Unable to Disarm
3) Unable to Disjoin
4) Can craft them without a feat/caster investment, only a single skill point.
5) Weightless
6) Does not detect as magical (This one is an assumption based on the 'flavor' the OP was going for)
7) Does not count against you for VoP (Again an assumption based on the 'flavor' the OP was going for)
8) No Spell requirements
9) Does not take up a slot and can stack with normal magical items
10) OP quoted giving the items a -50% cost reduction completely negating the penalty for making a slotless item.. just for investing in the skill required to craft them..
11) Unless otherwise noted as above, functions just like magical items.
Con's
1) Cannot trade between players/sell your creations.
I'm sorry, this just isn't fair/balanced in any sense of the word. I understand the concept they're going for, but they should shoot for the concept + balance. Not throw balance out the window.
A character's techniques and magic items are coming out of the same pool of wealth. This prevents any serious abuse. The fact that the bonuses gained by techniques are of the same type as bonuses granted by magic items (for example, Headband +2 Wis and a technique granting +2 Wis are both enhancements - so they don't stack) is an added protection against abuse. Really, the only advantage that techniques have is that they aren't objects (can't be stolen, sundered, etc.) and the biggest disadvantage of techniques is that they aren't objects (can't be purchased at "Magic Items Unlimited" and aren't exchangeable).
But allowing the 'slots' to be double dipped does come up with some issues. For example, right now, the monk has to choose between an AOMF and an AONA. Or he has to pay through the nose to have both on the same item. Your method allows him to do the AOMF as a slotless effect and stack it with a real AONA on top of it. Additionally, you're letting that ability function in anti-magic fields, since it's not magical. It's inherently much better than the cost. Because by the rules, even if I pay through the nose for a +6 INT that's slotless, it shuts down in an anti-magic field. That doesn't happen for the monk with your method. Again, it's a balance thing.
Also, since this is strictly learning, there is no reason why a Fighter could not research the same things and gain the same benefits, while wearing full +5 plate.
If you pick a slot, it could help balance issues. Call it a chakra enhancement. Each Ki techique focues on a specific chakra. Weapon enhancements would focus on the hands (perhaps the feet in some cases), natural armor enhancements might focus on the body chakra, resistance on the cloak or "aura" chakra enhancing one's aura, etc, etc. If a magic item is in place of that, it messes up the ki flowing through the chakra. So, you can have something a little more balanced, and have some pretty cool flavor too.
Focusing the effect on a slot does indeed help resolve some of the balance issues while maintaining the flavor of the effect.. going along these lines I'd have a few suggestions..
1) Require a feat to be able to do this, using a particular skill as your "Caster Level" for the check. Allow that feat to be taken as a Monk Bonus Feat.
2) Affix it so that you do have various "Chakra Points" one slot for each normal slot that you can have a magical item. Make it so that when you have an effect there, you are unable to use a magical item in that slot.
3) No discounts to the cost for skill requirements based on the skill needed to "craft" the effect. Especially not a 50% discount. Since you will not be doubling the cost due to non-slot items, then it shouldn't matter as much.
4) Rule that Dispel and Disjoin both affect Chakra points as it would a magical item, for flavor purposes make it "disrupt the flow of energy" to varying degrees. Disjoin, should it normally destroy a magical item would disrupt their energy to the point they would need to re-train the effect.
5) Chakra points detect as magical when you harness the energy in them as standard magical items. The energy in them is similar to the magical energy found within all things.
6) If a limb is sundered (it is possible) then the effect is lost and needs to be retrained, even if the limb is later regenerated. As any magical item, if there is an enhancement bonus it increases the hardness it normally would be by it's bonus.. similar to weapons.
7) The cost of the item can be a form of "spiritual enlightenment" when you carry the wealth you find and donate it to monestaries and churches as part of the training process.
8) With the one trade-off of being unable to sell the item/trade it between people.. you can be assured that the effect is weightless, gearless, and would allow you to qualify for Vow of Poverty..
That brings it much more in line with balance.
Great ideas! Might I suggest a check (like Wisdom + levels in ki-granting classes) to successfully understand the techniques? It could balance this feature a little better for those who would try to fully access it by level dipping, plus I picture monks occasionally struggling to master an advanced secret and having to redouble their training and studies.
Great ideas! Might I suggest a check (like Wisdom + levels in ki-granting classes) to successfully understand the techniques? It could balance this feature a little better for those who would try to fully access it by level dipping, plus I picture monks occasionally struggling to master an advanced secret and having to redouble their training and studies.
I agree with you here, it makes so much more sense then using a Skill based requirement..
In this case, it would be a feat requirement as per my previous post.. and instead of Knowledge History.. it would be a roll of Wis + Ki Level.. where Ki Level is your number of levels in a class that gives the Ki class feature. Your actual "Ki Level" will determine your effective caster level for creating effects.
The benefit to this is that you don't have to raise a skill for it and that you only need a single feat, the penalty as no one has pointed it out sooner.. is that you would need to make a standard magical item creation check at +5 DC for each spell the item would normally require.. similar to Master Craftsman rules.
I like the idea of Chakra slots. It keeps it balanced with the existing system, has great flavor/fluff, and keeps the price the same as the magic item people.
It even works out well for someone taking a fighter archetype and not using armor or using light armor, or a barbarian type that is tattoo'd/whatever by his clan's shaman.
As the Enlightenment improvements are internalised yet mystical, I would suggest making the "purchased powers" (Su)pernatural so they like normal items wouldn't function in antimagic. I also don't agree with the "better in every way" angle either.
The skill rank caps Are more restricting then the freedom to craft whatever you want. (Since making an item over your level just effects the DC's) You can also buy from MagicMart items that have higher bonuses then the formula/skill caps they have.
my 2cp
The ability won't use slots. I find that far too hokey for techniques. It's grounded in game mechanics and, as such, destroys suspension of disbelief.
While the idea of chakras is interesting, mapping them to magic item slots just doesn't seem believable at all to me.
If it doesn't seem valid to you and you want to leave the effect as "slotless".. then there are a few options that you have..
1) Ignore balance and zealot your way through the forums fighting for a supplement to be printed with this information.. or go off and use it as a houserule.
2) Understand that balance needs to occur, use every one of the previous rules mentioned with the following changes..
2a) Slotless items would be detected as full body auras in respect to detect magic/identify/arcane sight
2b) If any part of the whole is sundered, ie: If you lose a limb, the item is considered sundered and needs to be replaced.
2c) Double the cost as suggested for slotless items.
With the following suggestions that I made, you would be completely capable of making a monk with "slotless" techniques however it would pretty much cost you market value for all of these items (50% of market cost as you are making them, then 200% of that cost for slotless makes it equal to market cost). Since you can only create this effect for yourself normally, I see no reason to give it a 50% further discount or any discount for that matter by specifying requirements.. I mean seriously.. why would you allow something that only a monk can do to get a discount of 30% for a lawful allignment requirement..?
I support the flavor and context of your suggestions Lilith, as well as that of a gearless monk or any other concept someone else can think up. I however also firmly support and am firmly rooted in balance of the proposed changes. If something is not balanced with the other options in the game, then it should not exist in legal material imo.
As the Enlightenment improvements are internalised yet mystical, I would suggest making the "purchased powers" (Su)pernatural so they like normal items wouldn't function in antimagic. I also don't agree with the "better in every way" angle either.
The skill rank caps Are more restricting then the freedom to craft whatever you want. (Since making an item over your level just effects the DC's) You can also buy from MagicMart items that have higher bonuses then the formula/skill caps they have.
my 2cp
Yes, that's one of the reasons I did it. For example, you cannot discover a +6 Wis boost technique until you are at least 18th level (because you need 18 ranks in Knowledge (History)).
A character who uses items, instead, can purchase a +6 Headband as soon as they get the cash - far earlier than 18th level.
Yes.. however a caster in a similar situation would be unable to craft the item until 18th level as well.
Yes.. however a caster in a similar situation would be unable to craft the item until 18th level as well.
AFAIK.. (and please correct me if i am wrong) all a crafter has to do is raise the crafting target DC by +5 for not meeting the caster level prereq?
Also they can/will be found earlier then 18 typically as well as can be MagicMart bought before 18 also.
Yes.. however a caster in a similar situation would be unable to craft the item until 18th level as well.AFAIK.. (and please correct me if i am wrong) all a crafter has to do is raise the crafting target DC by +5 for not meeting the caster level prereq?
Also they can/will be found earlier then 18 typically as well as can be MagicMart bought before 18 also.
Afaik you can substitute every other requirement EXCEPT for the crafting feat and the Caster Level.. And if you could substitute it for the Caster Level by normal rules, then I don't see a reason a Monk couldn't do the exact same thing.
That's not true. A +6 Wis item has a CL of 8 in addition to what Rathendar said.
Then in this situation, a Monk and Caster should both be able to make it by 8th level? However those numbers seem a bit off. Either way, what I'm saying is that while having similar limitations as a caster, a Monk should have similar considerations.
They should be able to produce the same effects around the same level.
What's the problem with it functioning like magical items? If it functioned like them, then it means that they're in a balanced system. Breaking out of that system can destroy balance of a game.
If you want something that is not balanced within the current system, then I suggest you look more toward houseruling it in your own games.
You are implying that unless it is identical to magic items, then it is broken. You're wrong.
The whole point of having Secret Techniques in the first place is to give Monks the option of being gearless. Giving the monk magic items (even if we just put a thin veneer on top of magic items) is still leaving them with gear.
That.. makes.. no sense.. at all. O.O
What's the problem with it functioning like magical items? If it functioned like them, then it means that they're in a balanced system. Breaking out of that system can destroy balance of a game.
If you want something that is not balanced within the current system, then I suggest you look more toward houseruling it in your own games.
I have a bit of a disconnect with this statement gloom. What this reads as, is there is no need for anything else aside from what is already there. If that was the case paizo itself would never need to publish another book with a single new rule or substystem or archtype.
The gearless monk idea/brainstorm by definition does NOT use ...magic items.
I have thought up another Negative for the pro's and con's list that was made earlier.
Can't be looted. NO resale value/gearup/treasure to a PC who defeats someone using it.
I have a bit of a disconnect with this statement gloom. What this reads as, is there is no need for anything else aside from what is already there. If that was the case paizo itself would never need to publish another book with a single new rule or substystem or archtype.
The gearless monk idea/brainstorm by definition does NOT use ...magic items.
What you are looking for is a system in which adds similar benefits to using magical items, without using magical items.
The term "Gearless Monk" fills one with the idea that it's a monk, without gear. Further elaborating on that concept, includes the assumption that one wants said "Gearless Monk" to function at a similar power at a similar cost as other characters.
Following this system then there have been several options suggested, some of which were balanced within the existing system, others which are quite a bit less balanced.
1) Tattoos, Oils, Sacred Enchantment.. all of these follow similar creation mechanics to existing Magical Items and have similar Pro's/Con's..
2) Chakra manipulation.. this suggestion has similar creation mechanics, but more emphasis on creation by the monk intending to utilize the effects. There are many ways for it to function, but again similar to magic items..
3) Secret Techniques.. a system that functions vastly different then current creation rules, with the same top end.. almost all of the benefits, with a lot less of the difficulties. I don't see this as balanced within the current system even remotely. The concept is fine, it's the mechanics that need work.
I have thought up another Negative for the pro's and con's list that was made earlier.
Can't be looted. NO resale value/gearup/treasure to a PC who defeats someone using it.
How is this a negative? If anything it's a positive!
Limiting the spoils of war to your enemies? I think it's a positive anyway.
3) Secret Techniques.. a system that functions vastly different then current creation rules, with the same top end.. almost all of the benefits, with a lot less of the difficulties. I don't see this as balanced within the current system even remotely. The concept is fine, it's the mechanics that need work.
Yet the only difference between #1 and #3 is the descriptive wording. That's not "vastly different", it's wrapper.
I am getting the impression that sundering/disjunctioning is commonplace in the games you run/play in, and i will say that in that type of thing, i suppose it would gut reaction as more powerful but i really don't see it as being actually so.
I have thought up another Negative for the pro's and con's list that was made earlier.
Can't be looted. NO resale value/gearup/treasure to a PC who defeats someone using it.
How is this a negative? If anything it's a positive!
Limiting the spoils of war to your enemies? I think it's a positive anyway.
PC Party defeats CR 15 monk bad guy. gains 3 copper.
not a negative? really?
EDIT: Unless you regularly have PC's die, their bodies get left behind, and their left behind gear used against the players on return COMMONLY happening, i consider it a negative.
3) Secret Techniques.. a system that functions vastly different then current creation rules, with the same top end.. almost all of the benefits, with a lot less of the difficulties. I don't see this as balanced within the current system even remotely. The concept is fine, it's the mechanics that need work.Yet the only difference between #1 and #3 is the descriptive wording. That's not "vastly different", it's wrapper.
I am getting the impression that sundering/disjunctioning is commonplace in the games you run/play in, and i will say that in that type of thing, i suppose it would gut reaction as more powerful but i really don't see it as being actually so.
It's not the wording nor "wrapper" that is an issue, I don't have a problem with the idea of a monk training special techniques to make themselves stronger, nor do I have a problem with the concept of a gearless monk. I have a problem with the mechanical decisions that were listed previously on the thread. And while it may not be commonplace to have Disjunction in a game, during the time it happens why should it affect anyone else more then it would affect the Monk?
1) Fighter with +5 Natural Armor Amulet
2) Rogue with +5 Natural Armor Amulet
3) Monk with +5 Natural Armor Secret Technique
1) Loses the item
2) Loses the item
3) Item Suppressed as per Dispel Magic for a couple rounds..
That just isn't right.
And that is only one of the mechanical flaws that was referred to.
I have thought up another Negative for the pro's and con's list that was made earlier.
Can't be looted. NO resale value/gearup/treasure to a PC who defeats someone using it.
How is this a negative? If anything it's a positive!
Limiting the spoils of war to your enemies? I think it's a positive anyway.
PC Party defeats CR 15 monk bad guy. gains 3 copper.
not a negative? really?
EDIT: Unless you regularly have PC's die, their bodies get left behind, and their left behind gear used against the players on return COMMONLY happening, i consider it a negative.
The balance is based on player characters, not DM Encounters. In a situation where a party encountered a gearless monk, nothing says you can't modify the reward of the fight based on the average reward you should expect for the encounter. Possibly some magical gear that was being protected by the monk.. etc..
You've got some pretty shaky reasons as to why my argument is invalid, and have only been reinforcing my stance on this.
At this point it really seems like Rathendar and Lilith are arguing simply to argue. Please understand several facts..
Fact 1) I support the concept and flavor of a gearless monk.
Fact 2) I do not believe that the gearless monk should have any significant mechanical advantage nor disadvantage when compared to other characters.
Fact 3) I firmly believe that changing things to function "Like magical items" but with less of their weaknesses you are breaking game balance unless you offset it by an equally powerful opposite.