Many people have issues with the classic dump stat, Charisma. If you're not a class that need Charisma for abilities or intend to be a face, there's little in-game reason to keep a decent Charisma score at the expense of other things. But if those players like to Role-Play, they don't see any downsides until they actually need a check of some kind (which some players know how to avoid in a conversation - beating around the bush and then letting the face handle the dirty work).
The following is a simple solution to that problem. The NPC's mood never actually changes from this idea, (so indifferent people are still indifferent, regardless of the roll) but it causes some problems for low charisma.
Anytime a character begins talking to an NPC, roll a d6.
1 or less: Angry
2: Upset
3: Indifferent (leaning toward upset)
4: Indifferent (leaning toward pleasant)
5: Pleasant
6 or more: Happy
The only modifier on the roll is the character's Charisma modifier. Characters who like to role-play can still do so, but find that 7 charisma makes people treat them poorly while the beautiful 15 Charisma elf has an easy time with it.
I wonder what others' thoughts are and how they handle this issue (if at all).
The first objection that comes yto my mind is, "So? You still just stick your Face out in front and keep everyone else's mouths shut."
I have found that the easiest way to "penalize" someone with a low Charisma is to have the players (all of them), make skill checks more often. If someone wants to speak, then have them make the appropriate check. As the NPCs' attitude changes because the low Charisma guy keeps talking, the rest of the party will deal with him.
My players make skills checks on a very regular basis. They usually make 10 or more skill checks in the four hours we game. Some sessions have far more than that, especially in town. Tonight, for example, they made several Knowledge checks, several Diplomacy checks, several Sense Motive checks, a Bluff check, and several more I can't think of right now. I have found that having them make more skill checks rewards those who invested in ranks, feats, or attributes to improve their skills.
Something I also do, behind the scenes, is I give adjustments to gear and services based on the NPC's attitude.
Hostile: +25% or more increase
Unfriendly: 10-25% increase
Indifferent: No change
Friendly: 10-25% decrease
Helpful: 25% or more decrease
I also keep track of each NPC's attitude on a website that the players can access at any time. They know who they can talk to and who they still need to work on. They also know that sometimes attitudes can change off screen depending on their actions.
I have a couple players that have a hard time role playing but they have high Charisma scores. I allow the other players to give them some input of what they should say. I generally allow one suggestion per bonus. So the paladin with a +7 can receive 7 suggestions before I tell her that she needs to say something.
Many people have issues with the classic dump stat, Charisma. If you're not a class that need Charisma for abilities or intend to be a face, there's little in-game reason to keep a decent Charisma score at the expense of other things. But if those players like to Role-Play, they don't see any downsides until they actually need a check of some kind (which some players know how to avoid in a conversation - beating around the bush and then letting the face handle the dirty work).
The following is a simple solution to that problem. The NPC's mood never actually changes from this idea, (so indifferent people are still indifferent, regardless of the roll) but it causes some problems for low charisma.
Anytime a character begins talking to an NPC, roll a d6.
1 or less: Angry
2: Upset
3: Indifferent (leaning toward upset)
4: Indifferent (leaning toward pleasant)
5: Pleasant
6 or more: HappyThe only modifier on the roll is the character's Charisma modifier. Characters who like to role-play can still do so, but find that 7 charisma makes people treat them poorly while the beautiful 15 Charisma elf has an easy time with it.
I wonder what others' thoughts are and how they handle this issue (if at all).
Random mood swings don't make sense to me. I say if you want to make charisma worth taking just make it strong. Using punishments, which is how this will be seen, won't work too well.
Exactly. This rule punishes anyone with a low Cha for roleplaying. Either the low Cha character players will stop roleplaying, or everyone will have a high Cha. I leave it to you to determine the likelihood of each outcome happening in your group.
It is stuff like this that makes me want to simply eliminate Cha from the game. Make Cha worthless, and then it is a dump stat for most classes. Make it affect NPC reactions like it should, and then it might discourage roleplaying.
Such systems already existed in older versions of d20, starting attitude of NPCs by Charisma, maximal number of retainers and retainer morale
Since, as was said in this thread, NPC attitudes support face characters and could make RP harder for low Cha characters, there should be rules when to apply attitude boni - but on the other hand, it's kinda realistic, people with a good charisma ARE better at talking, that's a tautology
KotoR 2 had Charisma affecting other members of the party like some sort of beneficial aura - it could make some sort of 4e warlord alike characters possible if you apply it to PF
(I'd really like to see a cha based fighter who intimidates, feints and "buffs" his party, all by charisma, would make a nice swashbuckler concept)
I have found that the easiest way to "penalize" someone with a low Charisma is to have the players (all of them), make skill checks more often. If someone wants to speak, then have them make the appropriate check. As the NPCs' attitude changes because the low Charisma guy keeps talking, the rest of the party will deal with him.
My players make skills checks on a very regular basis. They usually make 10 or more skill checks in the four hours we game. Some sessions have far more than that, especially in town. Tonight, for example, they made several Knowledge checks, several Diplomacy checks, several Sense Motive checks, a Bluff check, and several more I can't think of right now. I have found that having them make more skill checks rewards those who invested in ranks, feats, or attributes to improve their skills.
Something I also do, behind the scenes, is I give adjustments to gear and services based on the NPC's attitude.
Hostile: +25% or more increase
Unfriendly: 10-25% increase
Indifferent: No change
Friendly: 10-25% decrease
Helpful: 25% or more decreaseI also keep track of each NPC's attitude on a website that the players can access at any time. They know who they can talk to and who they still need to work on. They also know that sometimes attitudes can change off screen depending on their actions.
I have a couple players that have a hard time role playing but they have high Charisma scores. I allow the other players to give them some input of what they should say. I generally allow one suggestion per bonus. So the paladin with a +7 can receive 7 suggestions before I tell her that she needs to say something.
Why wouldn't the low cha character give his gold to the high cha character to buy his items for him?
That is what I did as a teifling when the shopkeepers did not care to sell me things until they had taken care of everyone else first, despite me being next in line.I do like the suggestion bonus based on cha score.
I have found that the easiest way to "penalize" someone with a low Charisma is to have the players (all of them), make skill checks more often. If someone wants to speak, then have them make the appropriate check. As the NPCs' attitude changes because the low Charisma guy keeps talking, the rest of the party will deal with him.
My players make skills checks on a very regular basis. They usually make 10 or more skill checks in the four hours we game. Some sessions have far more than that, especially in town. Tonight, for example, they made several Knowledge checks, several Diplomacy checks, several Sense Motive checks, a Bluff check, and several more I can't think of right now. I have found that having them make more skill checks rewards those who invested in ranks, feats, or attributes to improve their skills.
Something I also do, behind the scenes, is I give adjustments to gear and services based on the NPC's attitude.
Hostile: +25% or more increase
Unfriendly: 10-25% increase
Indifferent: No change
Friendly: 10-25% decrease
Helpful: 25% or more decreaseI also keep track of each NPC's attitude on a website that the players can access at any time. They know who they can talk to and who they still need to work on. They also know that sometimes attitudes can change off screen depending on their actions.
I have a couple players that have a hard time role playing but they have high Charisma scores. I allow the other players to give them some input of what they should say. I generally allow one suggestion per bonus. So the paladin with a +7 can receive 7 suggestions before I tell her that she needs to say something.
Why wouldn't the low cha character give his gold to the high cha character to buy his items for him?
That is what I did as a teifling when the shopkeepers did not care to sell me things until they had taken care of everyone else first, despite me being next in line.I do like the suggestion bonus based on cha score.
He can and it would be perfectly acceptable. I have friends I know can get better discounts than I can on things so I have them pick stuff up for me. They do the same if they know I can get discounts they can't. If he does it in front of the NPC, the discount may not be as good or happen at all.
...I have found that the easiest way to "penalize" someone with a low Charisma is to have the players (all of them), make skill checks more often. If someone wants to speak, then have them make the appropriate check. As the NPCs' attitude changes because the low Charisma guy keeps talking, the rest of the party will deal with him.
My players make skills checks on a very regular basis. They usually make 10 or more skill checks in the four hours we game. Some sessions have far more than that, especially in town. Tonight, for example, they made several Knowledge checks, several Diplomacy checks, several Sense Motive checks, a Bluff check, and several more I can't think of right now. I have found that having them make more skill checks rewards those who invested in ranks, feats, or attributes to improve their skills.
Something I also do, behind the scenes, is I give adjustments to gear and services based on the NPC's attitude.
Hostile: +25% or more increase
Unfriendly: 10-25% increase
Indifferent: No change
Friendly: 10-25% decrease
Helpful: 25% or more decreaseI also keep track of each NPC's attitude on a website that the players can access at any time. They know who they can talk to and who they still need to work on. They also know that sometimes attitudes can change off screen depending on their actions.
I have a couple players that have a hard time role playing but they have high Charisma scores. I allow the other players to give them some input of what they should say. I generally allow one suggestion per bonus. So the paladin with a +7 can receive 7 suggestions before I tell her that she needs to say something.
Why wouldn't the low cha character give his gold to the high cha character to buy his items for him?
That is what I did as a teifling when the shopkeepers did not care to sell me things until they had taken care of everyone else first, despite me being next in line.I do like the suggestion bonus based on cha score.
Bob, I think your ideas are excellent. I think it keeps people from totally dumping their charisma without forcing everyone to make it a prime Stat either.
Lets face it, there are wizards who use Strength as their dump stat, and they rely on the bricks to do most of the heavy lifting. But if you go too low, there are times when theat low STR really hurts if the GM is paying attention...
The same is true of CHA. Its OK to let the FACE do most of the talking, but I agree that having the low CHA guy in the conversation can sometimes hurt the discussion. And if he's left on his own, well, then people react accordingly.
As for rewarding roleplaying, I expect a character with a 7 CHA to PLAY a 7 CHA...he can try to be more charming, but the player needs to do it carefully...we all know people with poor social skills who can be nice when they want to. (Back in the day, this described about half my old game group in the early 80s...)
BTW- love the name bob...my mother in law just started watching Arrested Development for the first time last night...