OK,
I have 2 sets of house rules I am initially interested in implementing.
1. I am making the following changes to healing spells.
II: Healing spells max out at the same level not the same total bonus. I.E. (Cure Light wounds becomes max 1d8+10 at level 5)
III: I am moving "Heal" from 6th to 7th.
IV: I am introducing "Lesser Heal" at 6th.
V: I am introducing "Greater Heal" at 8th.
VI: "Lesser Heal" heals 7HP/level max level 12.
VII: "Heal" heals 6HP/level max level 15.
VIII: "Greater Heal" heals 5HP/level max level 20.
VIV: "Heal, Mass" is a copy of the new 7th level Heal.
X: "Lesser Heal" removes no status effects.
XI: "Heal" removes status effects as listed in the original spell.
XII: "Greater Heal" removes status effects as per the "Heal" spell as well as all ability drain, and negative levels.
XIII: All inflicts and the "Harm" spell are modified in the same way.
Any feedback or the pointing out of any flaws in these ideas would be well received.
Mathematically I know this works to keep healing as an option, but I would like to know if anyone has any either in game (anecdotal) evidence one way or another or "Crunch" based opinion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. I would like to break down weapons and rebuild them so there are no clear "trap" weapons and no weapons like falchata that are obviously superior. I am working on the math now but it is nowhere near finished.
I was just wondering if I was reinventing the wheel here, however my searches had not turned up anything.
If this does already exist somewhere please feel free to point it out to me as it would be greatly appreciated.
I don't really have a response to your healing suggestion--I'll have to think about that some more; it might help if I knew the reasons for why you want to change the cure spells--but in regards to your question about weapons, check out the weapons link here. Kirth's stuff is some of the most comprehensive work I've found so far, and I plan on stealing at least half of it :)
I don't really have a response to your healing suggestion--I'll have to think about that some more; it might help if I knew the reasons for why you want to change the cure spells--but in regards to your question about weapons, check out the weapons link here. Kirth's stuff is some of the most comprehensive work I've found so far, and I plan on stealing at least half of it :)
To address my reasons for the healing changes it is because in my opinion that over the levels healing especially in combat becomes nigh useless unless and until you have the "Heal" spell and then it becomes a nigh full heal for almost anyone.
In short I feel the "Cure" spells are too weak especially the "Cure, Mass" spells. I also feel that "Heal" is too strong.
I forgot to include one change in my original post, my apologies.
Change: I am removing all of the "Cure, Mass" spells except "Cure Critical Wounds, Mass".
Also "Cure Critical Wounds, Mass" is going into the place of "Cure Light Wounds, Mass" as a 5th level spell.
P.S. Thank you for your response and link.
Lesser Heal, Heal, and Greater Heal have like a 6 point gap of healing in between them. At their maximum respective caster levels, lesser heal cures 84 hp. Heal cures 90. Greater heal cures 100.
I can't help but think that gap between them should be wider. Why would I ever caste an 8th-level spell to heal when I can instead cast a 6th-level spell and get almost as much healing?
The only things the better versions have going for them, I think, are the status removal.
It also doesn't help that, at CL 15 say, Heal cures 90 hp while Greater Heal only cures 75 hp. There's a logical disconnect there.
I would also like to propose another house rule that would make healing very effective and worth using: Any cure (or heal) spell starts at 0, rather than a negative modifier. For example, Joey is at -12 hp. He gets cured for 10 hp. Normally he would be at -2 and stable, which is what many would consider a wasted action. With my proposed house rule, he would be conscious and active at 10 hp (since the healing started at 0). Now that Joey is back in the fight, the healer doesn't feel like he totally wasted his round.
Lesser Heal, Heal, and Greater Heal have like a 6 point gap of healing in between them. At their maximum respective caster levels, lesser heal cures 84 hp. Heal cures 90. Greater heal cures 100.
I can't help but think that gap between them should be wider. Why would I ever caste an 8th-level spell to heal when I can instead cast a 6th-level spell and get almost as much healing?
The only things the better versions have going for them, I think, are the status removal.
It also doesn't help that, at CL 15 say, Heal cures 90 hp while Greater Heal only cures 75 hp. There's a logical disconnect there.
I would also like to propose another house rule that would make healing very effective and worth using: Any cure (or heal) spell starts at 0, rather than a negative modifier. For example, Joey is at -12 hp. He gets cured for 10 hp. Normally he would be at -2 and stable, which is what many would consider a wasted action. With my proposed house rule, he would be conscious and active at 10 hp (since the healing started at 0). Now that Joey is back in the fight, the healer doesn't feel like he totally wasted his round.
While I agree with you on the healing value of the "Heal" spells I have proposed, I am at a loss as to how to adjust them.
Let me lay out my assumptions so as to perhaps be more clear or spark an idea.
Assumptions:
I: The average HP gained at each level for any PC is 10 HP.
Average wizard HP is (3.5) average barbarian HP is (6.5) so average HP from Dice is (5).
Give a +5 HP per level in addition to this for Toughness, Favored class , and Con bonus seems reasonable to me.
I know that the highest possible permanent Con is 36 and 1 is the lowest possible which if the modifiers where averaged would only give us a (4) however I feel that more PC's would be at the median rather than the mean.
I could however see the argument for using either (+4) or (+6) rather than (+5) however that is what I felt was most likely.
-
II: My goal is to allow a "Cure" or "Heal" spell to restore between 40-50% of average health at the level gained.
"Lesser Heal" gained at Level 11, average HP (110), Heals (77), Percentage Healed (70%), percentage of average healed at 20th (42%), Heals more than Average[high] monster damage at CR11 (50)
"Heal" gained at Level 13, Average HP (130), Heals (78){Less than "Lesser Heal" until Level 14 and then only equal too "Lesser Heal"}, Percentage Healed (60%), Percentage of health healed at 20th (45%), Heals more than Average[high] monster damage at CR13 (60)
"Greater Heal" gained at level 15, average HP (150), Heals (75){Less than "Heal" or "Lesser Heal" at this level. Passes "Lesser Heal" at 17th and Heal at 19th}, Percentage Healed (50%), Percentage healed at 20th (50%), Heals more than Average[high] moster damage at CR15 (70)
I know that "Lesser Heal" and "Heal" start higher than I wanted, however I do not want these spells to be completely ineffective.
-
III: The addition of status effects and the reduction in health healed in "Heal" and "Greater Heal" is supposed to be a balancing factor but I understand that from CL15-CL18 "Heal" is > or = "Greater Heal for raw HP gain.
I saw "Greater Heal" as a way in combat for a caster to wipe away Negative levels from "Enervation" or "Energy Drain" or to remove Ability drain during combat. I felt this was extremely valuable.
-
IV: I do not want any of the "Heal" spells to become what "Heal" was in the corebook, which was the go-to, amazing, better than anything else spell. I also felt "Heal, Mass" was a little ridiculous. A 200 point heal for the entire party which also removes most status effect seems very strong to me.
-
Ideas:
1. Perhaps having "Greater Heal" have the ability to remove other effects such a "Flesh to Stone", would make it more valuable? Or is this too much?
2.Normalize the healing value by making all of the "Heal" spells 6/level?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------
To address your idea of any magical healing instantly taking the recipient to 0HP and then to apply the healing number, let me lay out some number and see what you think.
Recipient: Human Raging Barbarian with Heart of the Wild, 20 Con before Rage so 24 during rage, and Raging Vitality which brings his Con to 26 during Rage.
Assumptions:
I: We will add appropriate level bumps, and magic item mod, I.E. tomes/belts all to Con.
II: The Recipient is placed at 1HP away from death.
-
Level 1 (CON 26): Minimum CLW (3), Average CLW(6), Maximum CLW (10)
Number of cures needed to put a character on feet: Minimum CLW (9), Average CLW (5), Maximum CLW (3)
{Definitely possible to "waste" an action at this level}
-
Level 5 (Con 29 + 2 HoW): Minimum CSW (13), Average CSW (23), Maximum CSW (34)
Number of cures needed to put a character on feet: Minimum CSW (3), Average CSW (2), Maximum CSW (1)
{Still possible to "waste" an action at this level}
-
Level 10 (Con 32 +5 HoW): Minimum CCW (24), Average CCW (38), Maximum CCW (44)
Number of cures needed to put a character on feet: Minimum CCW (2), Average CCW (1), Maximum CCW (1)
{Assuming average rolls it is unlikely to "Waste" an action at this level}
-
Past level 10 you will never see someone healed and not back on their feet. As at level 11 you gain "Lesser Heal" and the aforementioned recipient will go from -36 to +41 HP.
This is therefore only a problem I feel between Level 1-5 and honestly marginal there.
The problem I see that makes me think I my do what you suggest and steal this rule from 4th ed is what I can the "Assisted Suicide" problem.
That is where a heal places you in the single digit HP somewhere and the next round before you can receive another heal you are killed outright as you are now in the positive HP and standing adjacent to the monster.
I hate this as I feel it makes healing weaker that it should be. I mean why should I heal our fighter if it is just going to result in his death?
This creates trains of thought like "If he is bleeding out just use stabilize and either grab his body and run, or let the rest of the party finish the monster. Just don't actually heal him that is what out of combat is for!"
In closing thank you everyone for your feedback so far.
I am assuming your melee types get beat up a lot. Why don't they boost their AC?
Assuming you increase healing: If healing can outpace damage then why doesn't every BBEG have a healer? Logically there is no reason not to do so, and why won't the bad guys kill the party cleric first?
I am assuming your melee types get beat up a lot. Why don't they boost their AC?
Assuming you increase healing: If healing can outpace damage then why doesn't every BBEG have a healer? Logically there is no reason not to do so, and why won't the bad guys kill the party cleric first?
I currently have a fighter AC (27), 2 Rogues AC (22), a bard AC (21), and a witch AC (18) at my table all Level 6.
I felt these AC's were reasonable at this level am I wrong?
Also there is no way for healing to outpace damage until Level 11 and then yes I can see this being a consideration, however I feel that a healer spending their standard action and having to be in touch range to undo the standard action of an equal CR mob is reasonable.
To address your third concern, a lot of my actually intelligent NPC/Monsters do target either the arcane spell caster or the cleric first.
Thank you for your feedback.
Rather than screwing with the numbers on the Cure spells, why not make them a swift action? You still need to be adjacent (or need some form of Reach Spell) and are still spending a spell slot, but it means you aren't losing an action (really) by not healing enough, and also means that you can do something in combat besides healing each round. As it is, most players regard in-combat healing as being a rather inefficient use of your time since it's almost always better to help end the fight than it is to patch someone up and let it last longer.
Heal, Mass Heal and probably the Mass Cure X spells should all remain standard actions to cast.
Rather than screwing with the numbers on the Cure spells, why not make them a swift action? You still need to be adjacent (or need some form of Reach Spell) and are still spending a spell slot, but it means you aren't losing an action (really) by not healing enough, and also means that you can do something in combat besides healing each round. As it is, most players regard in-combat healing as being a rather inefficient use of your time since it's almost always better to help end the fight than it is to patch someone up and let it last longer.
Heal, Mass Heal and probably the Mass Cure X spells should all remain standard actions to cast.
The problem is even as a swift action until you get to "Heal" all of the healing spells scale downwards in effectiveness until after 7th level they are so bad they are near useless.
The current "Cure, Mass" spells are so numerically bad that in my opinion they should not even be in the game.
Curing 1d8+9 HP even to multiple targets is absolutely useless at level 9.
At level 11 you get "Heal" so none of the "Cure, Mass" spells get used after that. In my opinion even if "Heal" did not exist the "Cure, Mass" spells would still not get used due to them being so bad.
So, that means from levels 7-11 cures do not get cast in combat ever.
On the other end of the spectrum at level 11 "Heal" is so good it is the only spell you will heal with until level 17 where you get "Heal,Mass". I have already stated my opinion of "Heal,Mass" in a prior post.
So this means that at the current numbers you will most likely only see in-combat healing until level 7. Using anecdotal evidence I have usually seen in-combat healing stop after level 5.
I would prefer to have a smooth progression of spells from spell level 1-9th that remained effective but not overpowering at all levels.
I am trying to make healing a viable choice without making it either A.) Mandatory, or B.) Overpowered.
Thank you for your suggestions.
Another problem with cure spells is the disconnect between low and high level characters. Cure light wounds means everything to a first level commoner that has been stabbed, but means nothing to a high level fighter with 200 hp and the same wound. Why is that?
Maybe this will work as a good alternative?
- Healing starts at 0.
- Healing spells are cast as a swift action.
- Cure Light heals 1d6 hp per level/HD of the TARGET. Cure Moderate heals 1d8/level, Serious heals 1d10/level, and Cure Critical cures 1d12/level.
- Lesser Heal can heal 6 hp/level of the target or the caster (whichever is higher), Heal can heal 8 hp/level and remove status effects, Greater Heal can heal 10 hp/level and remove even more status effects.
So casting cure light wounds on a 20th-level fighter cures 20d6 hp. Casting it on a 1st-level commoner cures 1d6. They both get proportionately equal amounts of healing as a result. What's more, it allows healing spells to outpace damage somewhat, which makes it actually worth the spell slots and expended resources (unless you are fighting multiple enemies or some such).
Another problem with cure spells is the disconnect between low and high level characters. Cure light wounds means everything to a first level commoner that has been stabbed, but means nothing to a high level fighter with 200 hp and the same wound. Why is that?
Maybe this will work as a good alternative?
- Healing starts at 0.
- Healing spells are cast as a swift action.
- Cure Light heals 1d6 hp per level/HD of the TARGET. Cure Moderate heals 1d8/level, Serious heals 1d10/level, and Cure Critical cures 1d12/level.
- Lesser Heal can heal 6 hp/level of the target or the caster (whichever is higher), Heal can heal 8 hp/level and remove status effects, Greater Heal can heal 10 hp/level and remove even more status effects.So casting cure light wounds on a 20th-level fighter cures 20d6 hp. Casting it on a 1st-level commoner cures 1d6. They both get proportionately equal amounts of healing as a result. What's more, it allows healing spells to outpace damage somewhat, which makes it actually worth the spell slots and expended resources (unless you are fighting multiple enemies or some such).
What a fabulous idea. That is some wonderful thinking!
I think the main problem I see is that the 4th level Cure and the first level cure and think "Two first levels are just as good, if not better than the 4th level version, and I'm more likely to get statistically average results since I roll more dice".
This is literally my only issue. Otherwise I love it, and will propose it to my players for my game. Inflict spells (and Harm) should be overhauled in a similar manner.
I am assuming your melee types get beat up a lot. Why don't they boost their AC?
Assuming you increase healing: If healing can outpace damage then why doesn't every BBEG have a healer? Logically there is no reason not to do so, and why won't the bad guys kill the party cleric first?I currently have a fighter AC (27), 2 Rogues AC (22), a bard AC (21), and a witch AC (18) at my table all Level 6.
I felt these AC's were reasonable at this level am I wrong?
Also there is no way for healing to outpace damage until Level 11 and then yes I can see this being a consideration, however I feel that a healer spending their standard action and having to be in touch range to undo the standard action of an equal CR mob is reasonable.
To address your third concern, a lot of my actually intelligent NPC/Monsters do target either the arcane spell caster or the cleric first.
Thank you for your feedback.
The AC is not bad, but I don't agree with increasing healing. I assumed that the players were getting beat up. I don't think healing is meant to keep you up in combat while you are fighting. It makes damage less effective. When I meant target the cleric I meant focus fire.
Example:I was running a game where one of my players charged the boss(melee type). The boss took the player down. The cleric channeled energy. At that point the boss ordered all his archers to kill the cleric. The boss tumbled past the party to strike the cleric. On the minion's go they all fired at the cleric and took him down. Now with healing as it is now I would not normally call for that. The only reason it happened then was because the boss was easily agitated as part of his personality, but with healing good enough to keep someone in the fight the focus fire is step 1.
PS:I have not done any math to be able to tell if the boost to the cure spells or channel to see if it makes a difference. I don't think heal is worth being boosted up a level unless you allow it to heal more hp though.
I do agree the cure mass spells are not that good if you just look at the numbers, but they do allow you to select who gets healed, and they are non touch spells.
High level characters also have more means of not getting hurt so that may be the trade-off.
Another problem with cure spells is the disconnect between low and high level characters. Cure light wounds means everything to a first level commoner that has been stabbed, but means nothing to a high level fighter with 200 hp and the same wound. Why is that?
Maybe this will work as a good alternative?
- Healing starts at 0.
- Healing spells are cast as a swift action.
- Cure Light heals 1d6 hp per level/HD of the TARGET. Cure Moderate heals 1d8/level, Serious heals 1d10/level, and Cure Critical cures 1d12/level.
- Lesser Heal can heal 6 hp/level of the target or the caster (whichever is higher), Heal can heal 8 hp/level and remove status effects, Greater Heal can heal 10 hp/level and remove even more status effects.So casting cure light wounds on a 20th-level fighter cures 20d6 hp. Casting it on a 1st-level commoner cures 1d6. They both get proportionately equal amounts of healing as a result. What's more, it allows healing spells to outpace damage somewhat, which makes it actually worth the spell slots and expended resources (unless you are fighting multiple enemies or some such).
I like the idea of healing being effective at any level however I feel this may be slightly too much.
For a 20th level character:
CLW: Min (20 HP) Average (70 HP) Max (120 HP)
CMW: Min (20 HP) Average (90 HP) Max (160 HP)
CSW: Min (20 HP) Average (110 HP) Max (200 HP)
CCW: Min (20 HP) Average (130 HP) Max (240 HP)
Lesser Heal would be 120 hp so less than a CCW average and the same as a CLW max.
If we leave CLW as a 1rst level and Lesser Heal as a 6th then lesser heal has no purpose as an empowered, maximized, CLW heals 180 HP so 1.5 times what a Lesser heal does at the same level.
Even worse an Empowered, maximized CCW would heal 360 HP at the same 9th level spell slot.
All of this as a swift action.
I think that healing as a swift action is a bad idea.
This is just abit too much in my opinion.
@Pobbes
Thank you for the Falcata idea I will look into it but I am still disassembling the weapon math.
@Wraithstrike
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree and that is fine. This is after all just an idea for house rules for personal taste. I however feel that healing is deserving of a boost so it can be a viable in-combat option, rather than an out of combat fill-up.
I will also look more closely at higher level defenses and check for the possibility of them amplifying the boosted cures.
Thank you all for your ideas.
I think the main problem I see is that the 4th level Cure and the first level cure and think "Two first levels are just as good, if not better than the 4th level version, and I'm more likely to get statistically average results since I roll more dice".
That's true, but it takes multiple rounds to cast it multiple times. Depedning on how much damage is incoming, you might not be able to afford to spread out the healing. Remember too that they are single target spells. If it looks like two of your allies are about to drop, who are you going to heal THIS round?
What's the point of saving a 1st-level slot if he gets dropped anyways? By using a 4th-level slot, he will heal more and stay in the fight longer, which means you can turn your attention to others who need your healing.
I think the main problem I see is that the 4th level Cure and the first level cure and think "Two first levels are just as good, if not better than the 4th level version, and I'm more likely to get statistically average results since I roll more dice".That's true, but it takes multiple rounds to cast it multiple times. Depedning on how much damage is incoming, you might not be able to afford to spread out the healing. Remember too that they are single target spells. If it looks like two of your allies are about to drop, who are you going to heal THIS round?
What's the point of saving a 1st-level slot if he gets dropped anyways? By using a 4th-level slot, he will heal more and stay in the fight longer, which means you can turn your attention to others who need your healing.
A fair point. I actually use that explanation at times to other players. How could I forget it?
Similar to Ravingdork's idea of healing working like a reverse fireball, I came across the idea somewhere of having the heal spells work off the natural healing mechanism.
Cure light wounds, instead of healing 1D8 HTPTS, would instead heal 1D8 days worth of natural healing. So for a 1st level character it is still a significant amount (1-8 htpts healed) but for a 10th level character it is still effective (10-80 htpts healed). You may want to lower the die from a D8 to a D6 perhaps but I like the consolidation on one mechanic.
You may also want to reduce the number of heal spells (perhaps one every other level) but that might help with the lower level spells.
You could also play around with having Heal count as a full day and nights worth of healing (which is 2 htpts per level per day).
EDIT: RE reducing the number of heals you would also want to lower the number of dice so perhaps at CLW is a first level spell that heals 1D8 days of natural healing, CMW is a third level spell that heals 2D8 days of natural healing, and CCW is a fifth level spell that heals 3D8 days of natural healing. Then Heal could be 4D8 days of natural healing and cures diseases and such.
Cure light wounds, instead of healing 1D8 HTPTS, would instead heal 1D8 days worth of natural healing. So for a 1st level character it is still a significant amount (1-8 htpts healed) but for a 10th level character it is still effective (10-80 htpts healed). You may want to lower the die from a D8 to a D6 perhaps but I like the consolidation on one mechanic.
I don't know if such a feat exists in Pathfinder 3rd party, or if this is even relevant, but in 3.5 there was a feat called Rapid Metabolism (that my Barb/Dragon Shaman LOVED) that allowed you to regain your level + double your Con modifier in hit points back from a night of rest. He was always ready to go. He has a 20 Con at level 1. He had a dedicated cleric, too, so this kind of healing would have made him insanely broken.
I have been toying around with healing, too. This is what I think I'm going to start using. It only boosts healing a bit more
Cure Light Wounds 2d4+Wis+1/lvl (avg 9 healing at level 1 from a cleric)
Cure Moderate 4d4+Wis+1/lvl
Cure Serious 6d4+Wis+1/lvl
Cure Critical 8d4+Wis+1/lvl
We've never played high enough to get to Heal.