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I have a quick question I know that it has probably been answered elsewhere.
If I were running a season 0 scenario, lets say Murder on the silken caravan. For the monsters, lets use the
Thanks.
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The difference between the two is insignificant.
I generally use Bestiary entries, since I find them better balanced against PF characters. I only take out the MM if there is no PF equivalent or the two versions are significantly different.
EDIT: I believe Joshua Frost once posted we are supposed to go with MM versions. But I think GMs should get to decide this themselves.
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I believe it has been stated to use the MM version.
If, on the other hand, you decide to use the Bestiary version, be very careful, as some of the monsters have had serious changes in CR between the two.
I believe there was a killer GM discussion a while back covering a PFized crocodile or alligator that went from CR 2 to CR 4.
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I has been recommended to use the MM for Season 0 scenarios that haven't yet been converted. This is the safe option, because some creatures may have changed from MM to Pathfinder Bestiary.
Personally, I haven't encountered any problems using Pathfinder Bestiary where there is a direct equivalent. Eg, zombie for zombie.
However, where GMs have come unstuck is where there isn't a direct equivalent, and they've substituted a like creature, or applied "simple" templates to a close-enough creature.
Eg, you need a Beetle of Medium size, but the Bestiary only includes examples of Small or Large beetles. So you think, okay, I'll apply the Advanced or Giant Creature simple template to get the size I need, without realising how much more deadly this makes the creature for a group of four 1st-level characters.
Another example might be where the creature doesn't exist, eg a Howler. Do you substitute with a Dire Wolf or maybe a Barghest? How does that change the encounter?
I'd suggest having both MM and Pathfinder Bestiary handy if you have them, and use whichever seems appropriate for the situation ... because Fast Zombies are fun!
Cheers,
DarkWhite
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Frankly I don't want to bother digging out an online MM entry or haul around my old MM unless absolutely necessary. My rule of thumb is as follows:
1) If there are stats published in the module I use them as-is with absolutely no modifications. Things like concentration, CMB/CMD, skills, etc. I convert on the fly as-needed.
2) I use the Bestiary creature if it is a reasonable equivalent. The key here is reasonable equivalent, which in my mind means - same or lower CR. I am not going to throw the party up against a CR 5 Dire Critter when the module was designed around a CR 2 Dire Critter.
3) If there is no reasonable equivalent in the Bestiary (or the creature does not exist in Pathfinder) I will then turn to the MM entry and convert on the fly.
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Thank you all for your helpful answers.
So from what I understand Mr. Frost urges us to use the season 0 scenarios as written and to use the 3.5 MM stats.
However in practice we use our own reasonable judgment. If the 3.5 MM stats are available, then use them, if not the Bestiary.
I see where this would be easy where there is a direct equivalent monster that hasn't changed in CR.
However things could get tricky when we improvise and "inflate" a monster by ourselves.
I remember a while back I think this is perhaps a year or more, while playing a Monday night PFS game at the Game Theory Store in Raleigh NC, now I have forgotten the name of the scenario I do think it was a season 0 one. I remember a market place, and there were a bunch of "Lego" centipedes facing our characters. The GM was improvising with the miniatures.
Our party I believe was at the time around 4th level. There was a rogue, a mage another mage and my character a cleric/ wizard (I was working towards mystic theurge). I think there may have been a 2nd level fighter, and an alchemist. My memories may be incorrect; it’s been a while.
Anwyways the battle occurred in a market place. The fighter moved in to engage, the centipedes, as did the alchemist. We were using a combination of summoned critters; evocation spells, and bless spells. One of the mages, ran out from cover I think yelling “for Osirion”, or something like that. He ended up being very near the centipedes. Being the nearest bit of fast food next to one of the centipedes, it scrambled over a crate or two and bit the wizard. The GM unfortunately rolled a twenty and confirmed the critical hit, and the mage character was killed from the damage.
After the battle, the GM I believe apologized for the results of the battle, and mentioned that he had used the monster rules to enlarge the centipedes from the bestiary to the size they were supposed to be in the module.
The other players at the table, myself included offered to help foot the bill to help get his character raised. Upset at the loss of his character the player decided to leave.
Unfortunately this resulted in a bit of a mess, because the player upset at the loss of his character posted a thread on these boards entitled “what if your GM is cheating”. The GM was understandably offended by being called a cheater when he felt that he hadn’t cheated. I and another player chimed in…. It did get sorted out eventually. I think Mr. Frost came down on the side of the GM.
Perhaps there was a point to this…what ever it was I have forgotten it. I apologies for being long winded.
Anyways thank you for your thoughts and answers. They have been very helpful.
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Perhaps there was a point to this…what ever it was I have forgotten it. I apologies for being long winded.
Anyways thank you for your thoughts and answers. They have been very helpful.
Sounds like you played "the Many Fortunes of Grandmaster Torch"?!
I too ran that and also converted the criters to Bestiary versions. There were 7 PCs so I had to bump the challenge up a bit, to avoid a complete walk over.
I think yours and Joshua's point is that GMs who take steps to improve the players' game experience are not cheaters. But in general scenarios should be run as written, since the balannce of encounters can very easily shift. And we don't like players losing characters over mistakes that could have been avoided by sticking to the printed material.
By the way my players had a couple of tough fights, but eventually come out on top and were never the wiser to the slight changes I had made.
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Diego Winterborg,
Thank you, yes I believe you are right. I think it was "the many Fortunes of Grandmaster Torch".
Perhaps this is a good sign, i have a much easier time remembering the friends at the table, and the amusing moments we had rather then the name of the scenario. The name of the scenario could have been "stuffing five sahuagin in a barrel" and i still would have trouble remembering the name.
and to your second point, yes again. My friend who was running the table wasn't cheating. He happened to roll a confirmed critical on a wizard character. I will admit im not sure what difference the inflated centapede made, i think a critical is a critical, and i remember the GM rolled good damage either way would be very bad for the wizard. I am not sure why the Player decided to have his wizard break from cover run towards the centepedes shouting "For Osirion". I think his character might have been of the Taldane faction. It most likely was a faction mission.
And yes, i think improvising is a delicate balance. perhaps this was a case where things didn't work out as well as we would have hoped. I think it is much easier if you have the luxury of knowing the playersy and the material before hand and much harder to do if you are running things cold.
And yes it is preferable to stick to the printed script but occasionally we do need to improvise.
where was i going? oh yes to see if i spelled sahuagin correctly. thanks
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I am not sure why the Player decided to have his wizard break from cover run towards the centepedes shouting "For Osirion". I think his character might have been of the Taldane faction. It most likely was a faction mission.
Venture-Captain, Arizona—Tucson
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When deciding whether you need to break out your old, battered Monster Manual, first examine the creatures' CR. If it comes out the same, go with the Bestiary. If it comes out different, pull the Manual or tweak the encounter to match the previous CR.
As an example: The scenario indicates that the party runs into a group of two CR 3 click-clicks (a CR 5 encounter). Pathfinder Click-clicks are CR 4 creatures with higher ACs than their outdated counterparts. The GM decides to apply the "Young" simple template, making them smaller and less ferocious.
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The intention is that you always use the MM version if that is what's called out in the scenario.
That being said, I do not carry my MM with me to conventions. If I'm running a mod that I knew about ahead of time and prepped, then I will print out the page/s from the MM. If it is a "wildcard" slot, I may not have my MM and will use the Bestiary listing. YMMV