I have post up about a High Fantasy Low Magic Item game, but I wanted to pull out one question I am hoping to outsource some Math crunching to the boards.
Maximum DC modifier for attribute score is +5. Recalculate all monster DC's with this in mind. Generally lowers DC's of the high CR monsters abilities and spell like effects but means that bonus spells for exceptionally high stats are still intact.
QUESTION: Do monster saving throws also need to be lowered? My gut says yes but I haven’t crunched the numbers yet.
PLEASE NOTE: DC pumps from feats or class abilities will still be applied.
If no PC can have above a +5 to the DC from a casting attribute it seems that lowering the saves would be necssiary to avoid more of a reduction in sucess of casters than I intended(the thread has the other casting modifications I am making) but what should the "magic number" be: +5, +6, +7?
At level 1 a PC can have a +5 to DC from their prime attribute.
(18 start +2 from racial).
This means that from level 2 onward the only bump they can get is from feats or class abilities. So you are losing out on (+3 from booster item) and (+2 from your every 4th level bump). So overall the saves will be at least 5 lower- 8 lower if the campaign would get high enough for inherents to come into question.
(the 2 from the level bumps becomes 3 when combined with +5 from the inherent. 5+5=10/2= +5)
So 1-20 the PC is losing out on +8 to their DC.
You figure a level 20 wizard casting a level 9 spell with a +5 from ability and +2 from feats = 10+9+5+2=27 + any random "boosters". (ioun stone maybe? i dunno).
You look at the monster creation guidelines for a CR 20 beastie and they recommend a +22 to good save. So you are looking at them passing a "good save" on a 5 or higher, under your system. A bad save is 10 or higher. so 25% or 50% chance to save, on average.
As a Dm I'm sure that seems about right but as a player- blowing your highest level spell slot for 25% chance of success seems down right craptastic.
Now, my question to you:
Why are you going to lower the monster save DC's if your intent was to cap the player power by knocking DC's down? That seems odd to me. But to answer your question- yes. Just knock the DC's down by 1 every 3 levels (or so) and you'll get a -6 decrease over 20 levels which almost even it up without increasing your math overly much. But then you end up where you started for the most part- with .. monsters having a rough time with saves.
So, yes 1 "drop" every 3 CR for hte monsters should roughly do it.. but I'm not a math whiz and I'd invite anyone to prove it. lol :)
-S
From what I can see, the underlying question is whether
"Magic mostly works, except when strong creatures manage to resist"
or
"Magic rarely works, except when weak creatures fail to resist"
Personally, I like the first philosophical approach better and would rather limit the sources of DC pumpin' then entirely rely on the DC pumpin' for spellcasters to be effective.
I know that this doesn't answer your question, but I think that the philosophical shift is significant enough to mention.
'findel
Now, my question to you:
Why are you going to lower the monster save DC's if your intent was to cap the player power by knocking DC's down? That seems odd to me. But to answer your question- yes. Just knock the DC's down by 1 every 3 levels (or so) and you'll get a -6 decrease over 20 levels which almost even it up without increasing your math overly much. But then you end up where you started for the most part- with .. monsters having a rough time with saves.So, yes 1 "drop" every 3 CR for hte monsters should roughly do it.. but I'm not a math whiz and I'd invite anyone to prove it. lol :)
-S
Reasonable question, I was actually looking for a less gear dependant game that allows for a high fantasy. My goal was not particularly to punish casters but to lower the DC's of Monster abilites and spells so the cloaks of resistance and stat pumping items could be done without at higher levels of play. However, the high saves these creatures have also became a consideration to balance out.
I can certianly look at the -1 per 3 CR option to find out that equilibrium I am looking for.
From what I can see, the underlying question is whether
"Magic mostly works, except when strong creatures manage to resist"
or
"Magic rarely works, except when weak creatures fail to resist"
Personally, I like the first philosophical approach better and would rather limit the sources of DC pumpin' then entirely rely on the DC pumpin' for spellcasters to be effective.
I know that this doesn't answer your question, but I think that the philosophical shift is significant enough to mention.
'findel
I agree 'findel option one is more where I want the game to be underpinnings wise. Its the goal of lowering gear dependance that creates a large number of ripples through the game which I knew going into this process.
All you end up with there is no-save conjurers acting at full power while save-dependant casters flop around like helpless fish.
If you want to 'invert' the system a little I have a suggestion:
You could tie save throw DCs directly to ranks in spellcraft.
So the save throw would be DC spell level+ranks in spellcraft.
Note that ability modifiers would not apply to this -- only ranks in spellcraft.
If you want to 'invert' the system a little I have a suggestion:
You could tie save throw DCs directly to ranks in spellcraft.
So the save throw would be DC spell level+ranks in spellcraft.
Note that ability modifiers would not apply to this -- only ranks in spellcraft.
That wouldn't work until very high levels. A 1st level caster might have spells with a DC of 2-5 for quite a while. Enemies with extremely weak saves will fail only rarely. The rest will save on anything but a 1.
I'm actually not extremely bothered by that, but there could be some tweaks to get it right.