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The point of this thread is to have a real conversation about how the game is actually played, looking at the value of classes in actual play in games with level appropriate combats.
First I want to look at Rise of the Runelords, starting with the first book, burnt offerings. This will be spoiler filled, and I will try to break them up some to avoid walls of text.
First set of encounters involve an ambush on the new 1st level characters. There is no time to buff or scout. This becomes three waves of encounters, with a brief (a few rounds) respite to heal after the first two fights.
The goblins attack in volume, with both ranged and melee weapons. Crowds cause difficulty for certain spells, and for ranged attackers without precise shot (hard to have at 1st level unless you are built for it)
I see martial classes having an advantage here, given the lack of prep time, and volume of things attacking that could take advantage of low AC targets, but that question is the heart of the discussion.
This is the only encounter of the day, a series of one offs follow, before the next major encounter at the Glassworks which I will go over in the next post.
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The second real encounter of the AP is the glassworks. All you know going in is your friend is missing and possibly in danger(time constraint).
There is some scouting you can do before you enter, but the primary encounter involves a large number of goblins in a space full of dangerous terrain and flying hot glass.
You are about 2nd level, so not a lot of new options yet. Low AC characters are going to have issues due to the shear volume of what they are fighting, and leaving and coming back has serious penalities written in (Tsuto excapes and the person you are sent to rescue is either killed or gone.)
At this point the fight moves downstairs, but this is functionally one long encounter.
Downstairs could go a couple of ways. If the party finds the Catacombs of wrath they could try to explore it that day, or come back another day, making the glassworks functionally a one encounter day (good for casters, except for the problems with low AC vs high volume of things attacking you in the fight)
Catacombs of Wrath is a classic dungeon crawl. There are five separate encounters, with only a single exit and a possibility to reinforce if you leave and come back.
The Sinspawn and mutated goblin are immune to mind effecting, an the sinspawn have spell resistance. The Vargouille scream is a fort save, problematic to anyone with low fort. The Quasit is where you need your caster, since it has DR/Cold iron and there was no predicting or prepping for that. Also, if it turns invisible, you may be high enough level for a wizard with Glitterdust.
Next will be the attack on the goblin fortress.
Interesting idea.
One potential problem is that Runelords is a 3.5 module. That's not a big obstacle to running it as a Pathfinder campaign, but for this kind of analysis it may cause problems.
How are you going to handle class features that have changed for 3.5? How will you be retatting enemies to account for this? Haven't traps and XP changed too? What about monsters that have been updated?
It's not like using a PFRPG-era adventure path would provide better analysis for a "generic" campaign... Council of Thieves and Kingmaker both have some pretty serious confounds, but I suppose there is no "generic" campaign. Still, might Serpent's Skull be a better choice?
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Interesting idea.
One potential problem is that Runelords is a 3.5 module. That's not a big obstacle to running it as a Pathfinder campaign, but for this kind of analysis it may cause problems.
How are you going to handle class features that have changed for 3.5? How will you be retatting enemies to account for this? Haven't traps and XP changed too? What about monsters that have been updated?
It's not like using a PFRPG-era adventure path would provide better analysis for a "generic" campaign... Council of Thieves and Kingmaker both have some pretty serious confounds, but I suppose there is no "generic" campaign. Still, might Serpent's Skull be a better choice?
I'm kind of starting this as a way to look at them one by one. I haven't run Serpents Skull yet so I can't speak to it. If someone wanted to start one for that one I'd be interested in looking at it. I know from skimming it that it goes back and forth between kingmaker sandbox and more traditional AP.
I kind of look at RoTRL as both the original Paizo ap and one that has been played enough that many can come here and discuss it without spoiler issues.
I ran it converting as I went, so where the issues come up I'll try to address it, but it could also be part of the discussion.
My premise is that they are written so all classes shine/suck at various points throughout, and that there is no uberbuild/class. Just well build parties.
We'll see if that bears out in the discussion.
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The attack on Thistletop starts in a briar patch. Druid characters will have a HUGE advantage here. There are only two potential encounters in the briar, but both of them can alert guard in the main area and make life much more difficult.
The bridge is a place that can be a major problem, and add another encounter in the water cave with the bunyip.
If you got through the briars undetected things are easier, but frankly that is unlikely. There are tons of goblins to irritate low AC players and waste spells, prior to the big fight in the throne room. This is a high volume fight, but it is primarily a big baddie on a mount.
At this point, philosophy may diverge. My though is the party needs to keep going, as this is an invasion. You've gotten healing stuff along the way so martial classes will be fine, but casters may be running low on spells.
If you go down to the next level, there are 5 encounters, several of which could spill into each other. When my group ran the game, they alerted the guards while they were in the briar patch, and so encountered the bugbear and orik above along with the other goblins outside the throne room. This made the upper level harder, but the lower level easier.
The Yeth Hounds in particular are fairly brutal.
If you did it in one go, your party is going to be running low on spells as you have to decide if you want to go down another level. My party took it all in one go, and continued on to level 3, following the retreating Lyrie. Aside from the trap, it is basically one big fight with the big baddie and whoever else has retreated down with her and her dogs.
Once you take her out, you can rest as the remainder is more or less optional (though interesting).
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In summary of "Burnt Offering", I would rate the classes as follow.
Classes that would be have disadvantages (for this book only)
Cavaliers (not many places mounts can be used), Wizards (long dungeon crawls with limited numbers of spell given the low levels, lots of high volume encounters which penalize low AC characters)
Classed that would have advantages
Druids (In addition to Briar area, wild shape would allow a lot of scouting access), Fighter (High AC against volume attacks, most BBEG's are front line fighters.) and rogues (lots of traps, diplomacy skills could be useful in the one off encounters and scouting places like the glassworks.)
As I see it the other classes are about average. Yes, sorcerers have the AC issue, but probably enough spells to stay useful even in the longer dungeon dives, and with similar enemies will likely know the right spell and be able to use it many times. A ranger with Goblin favored enemy would be great, but that isn't the best favored enemy later on.
I'll look at Skinsaw tomorrow, but first thoughts on the value of classes in "Burnt Offerings"?
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Looking at "The Skinsaw Murder", everyone should be 4th level.
It starts off with a murder investigation, which is perfect for skill based classes with decent charisma.
Then off to Farmer Grumps house. You can take a few members of Sandpoint's watch, but they are more or less cannon fodder.
You end up fighting waves and waves of ghouls. Elves will shine in these fights, as they are immune to the bite, front line fighters will suffer. Caster classes that can swap spells have enough clues to be able to realize what they are fighting and memorize appropriately, but given the layout it will be hard to protect them, since there is no "back" in the cornfield.
This is a beast of a fight with a ton of creatures that come in waves, and have cover in the corn. Everyone is at risk of being exposed to attack, since they can come from all sides out of the corn. There are 14 regular ghouls and then the enhanced one at the farm itself.
Retreat and return isn't really a viable option, given there are people dying, hung up as scarecrows.
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Moving on to Foxglove manor, I am going to assume at this point everyone is 5th level, although if you play it straight without side quests you may only be 4th level.
The manor is designed to be taken in one go. They have the carrionstorm set to keep you in the manor, and nightmares if you try to rest there.
Their are a ton of haunts, and high skill classes will do well on the perception checks. On the other hand, Rogues will have trouble with the will saves...a lot of the spells hit wisdom, which is problematic with all the will saves...
Still not a lot of spell burning, as there isn't much you can do about most of the Haunts. They happen and you move on. Spell channel may run dry, along with restorations and heals, but it is a benefit to be a class that has those things in this one.
There is actual combat with the Ghoul bat, some ghouls, and of course Aldern, but you should have come prepared to fight with undead. Only the haunts were a surprise, particularly when this first came out since they were a new mechanic.
Paladins absolutely dominate this sections, with Clerics and other divine casters being second and third. If you are 5th level, your monks high saves and purity of body help as well, but shine far less than the divine classes.
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Up to Magnimar for more investigations. The townhouse is a single day combat, but it is a surprise all around. The stalkers are going to likely surprise everyone, which is problematic for low hit point/low AC classes, and Damage Reduction piercing and slashing isn't going to help any of the frontline fighters, meaning the battle is pretty much a wash for all classes.
Skill classes shine after the battle, as you need to find things with relatively high search checks.
The Sawmill is a grind. If you leave, I would as a DM have the magistrate charge you with breaking and entering into his home and turn all of Magnimar against you. Hell, he could even frame you for the murders, since you came up from a place where similar murders occured...you have to do it in one go.
It's 5 encounters coming in waves and volume, but each one isn't very tough in and of themselves.
Last part is the Shadow Clock, another one that really needs to be completed in a day (arguably the same day as the sawmill, since if Xanesha hears Ironbriar is dead, she may leave, she did in my game and they ran into her with her sister in Hook Mountain)
The Golem is a Golem, which is always a pain for casters. The stairs are the stairs, meaning low reflex save could be a problem, and the stalkers are the stalkers, meaning they have damage reduction.
Xanesha is a ridiculous encounter. Spell resistance, invisible, flying...part of the reason I had her flee was so the players could level a bit before they faced her. All players at this level will have trouble with her.
Summary next.
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In summary of "The Skinsaw Murders" I would rate the classes as follow.
Classes with major advantages:
Paladin is immune to fear effects, negating half the haunts. Aura of courage boosts everyone else. They can channel, have high saves...they really are the stars of this section.
All other Divine casters are second, as when you are dealing with undead, they shine, not to mention restoration spells.
Bards, as bardic knowledge and there is a lot of social interaction in this book with the investigations being front and center.
Classes with major disadvantages:
Cavalier again, as there is a lot of indoor stuff.
Classes with minor disadvantages
Sorcerers could have trouble if they didn't memorize spells for dealing with undead, but they should be fine in general.
Martial classes could be in trouble with the sheer volume of exposure to ghouls, as well as the nature of the BBEG. They will shine with the golem, though.
All of the other classes I think work out as neither better or worse.
This is obviously a book for the Divine classes, with a nod to skill classes and role playing with all of the investigation and back story.