I am running into a bit of a problem. 1 player in my group is not thrilled with the Kingmaker part of the Kingmaker AP. To save myself a retype, the cruxt of the issue and a few ideas I have to deal with it are detailed here. Any advice anyone can give would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
Dale
A couple of questions that might clarify things, and let us provide better advice:
1) Does this player generally show this kind of resistance to other things when you're running games? Even if only rarely, what sorts of things have produced this resistance in the past?
2) What sort of player is he, generally? I.e. what sorts of games does he prefer? (role-play, combat, figuring out puzzles and complex plots, crafting uber-characters?)
3) Is this player generally good about sharing the spotlight? (If the others are doing the kingdom-building stuff and he still chooses not to participate, will be be a distraction and cause problems, or just be quietly bored?)
A couple of questions that might clarify things, and let us provide better advice:
1) Does this player generally show this kind of resistance to other things when you're running games? Even if only rarely, what sorts of things have produced this resistance in the past?
2) What sort of player is he, generally? I.e. what sorts of games does he prefer? (role-play, combat, figuring out puzzles and complex plots, crafting uber-characters?)
3) Is this player generally good about sharing the spotlight? (If the others are doing the kingdom-building stuff and he still chooses not to participate, will be be a distraction and cause problems, or just be quietly bored?)
Hey Cintra,
1) Bloodpig from the Curse of the Crimson Throne quickly comes to mind. If you're not familiar with it, its basically a soccer game in the middle of the AP. You have to get a pig in a hole in the ground where a bunch of ravenous wolves devour it. Mind you, the whole of the group (myself included, I was a player at the time) didn't care for it. His dislike was probably more acute than the rest of the group.
2) He's all about the optimal builds, and getting to the next level as fast as possible. He was playing an eldritch knight during part of CotCT. I prefer wizards, but I didn't even bother considering one since I knew that he would have had filled that spotlight.
3) I would call him one of the loudest voices in the room. But when he goes on about how he is not excited about X or Y or whatever and the rest of the group disagrees, the rest of the group gets real quiet.
It sounds like he sees these alternate-rules situations as a "waste of time" - a distraction from his focus on advancing his character.
Here's what I would recommend:
Point out that a lot of groups have already played through this adventure path, and (from what I've seen on the boards) the response to the kingdom-building rules has been overwhelmingly positive. That there's a good chance he'll like them better than he expects, when he's actually using them and gaining benefits for his party by doing so.
Also, if he's more into optimizing than some of the others, you could point out to him that the others could really use his participation in this, simply because you expect him to be good at looking at these rules and figuring out the optimal ways to apply them. (This assumes you're planning to show your group the specifics of what buildings offer what benefits, etc. This also assumes he is actually good at optimizing...)
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You mentioned (in the thread you linked to) the possibility of just asking him to wait and try out the rules before deciding about them. If he keeps drowning out the others with his opinions on this matter, however, I'd recommend taking it a step farther.
Point out to him that everyone in the group deserves their moment in the spotlight, when they get to look cool and do the things they care about. And likewise, everyone deserves their chance to have their kind of fun. You know, role-play moments for the role-players, etc. He is entitled to his opinion about these rules, but not to the extent of ruining them for anyone else. Since the others are looking forward to this, make sure he understands that he is expected to be mature and not ruin their fun with his resistance. Remind him that this is a team effort, and sabotaging his team (even if only with his attitude) is not going to help him advance his character or the adventure's plotline.
And if giving it a fair chance results in him getting into the spirit of things and helping the group optimize their kingdom, great!
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Sounds like he's a Major D-Bag. If he won't specify what he doesn't like about them and offer a constructive alternative, I would tell him to find another game. The kingdom building and mass combat rules are a team effort anyway, so it isn't as if his character is losing anything from a bad economy roll.
To dogpile on a couple of comments made by other posters:
The kingdom building mechanics are prime for optimization. There are a lot of NPCs from which to draw the ancillary officials of the kingdom, and our group has created a second-string party (which we do play from time to time) to fill certain roles as well. If the rest of the group doesn't care so much, have the loud guy optimize the bejeezus out of the kingdom org chart. Incidentally, growing the kingdom provides not-insignificant amounts of experience for little risk to the PC's health.
While our group really enjoys the kingdom building rules in Kingmaker, there have been other aspects of other APs that we haven't enjoyed so much...and that's OK. It's alright to have to do things you don't particularly like in order to do the things you DO like. Not everything about role-playing is giggles and sunlight. I don't mean this as combative as it might sound across the void of the internet, but if this player can't grasp the concept of deferred gratification and the rest of the group is enjoying themselves, it would be unfair to the group to change the game to suit the 'druthers of one individual.
Zo
He says that it does not feel like "D&D" to him.
Companion Set. Green Box. Primarily rules for dominion management and mass combat. You know, with that stronghold that you're supposed to get as right at 9th level. But I digress...
First, it's Kingmaker. Like, that's the title. There aren't "Kingmaker part[s]." Deciding to object an episode in is like signing up for a pirate game and complaining about shipboard combat. It's not merely selfish, it's actually inane.
Your priority is to get him to be quiet: "Dave, you know that the other players respect and listen to what you say, so would you please not speak so ill of the nation-building aspects?"
You may also want to point out to him the degree to which his optimization-oriented input will be decidedly vital to the other players, who will be faced with a number of situations where they dearly need someone with that sort of outlook. If nothing else, there are character-beneficial reasons to engage the kingdom building segments - XP, money, magical items. So a real optimizer will engage that for its maximal value.
But, really, to the extent you can get him to be patient on the sidelines, you will probably win him over as he sees the others engaged in it. And, frankly, it seems perfectly valid RP wise that there might be some people who were much less interested in the nuance.
Also, if he's more into optimizing than some of the others, you could point out to him that the others could really use his participation in this, simply because you expect him to be good at looking at these rules and figuring out the optimal ways to apply them.
Oh good one. Noted for next week.
Remind him that this is a team effort, and sabotaging his team (even if only with his attitude) is not going to help him advance his character or the adventure's plotline.
Noted, I'll try this if the previous fails.
Sounds like he's a Major D-Bag.
He really isn't. He's a good guy. He might not be the most tactful person in the world, but I can definitely say the same about myself and plenty of others I call friends.
You can also point that he will get XP (and prestige) for doing nothing.
Good one. Noted. Thanks.
This is horribly passive-aggressive but if it comes down to it you could always bust out the old, “Well if this is going to be too hard for you…” or “Well I understand if you’re not up for the challenge…” ;D
LOL ... You're evil. I like it. I probably won't use that though. ;) Appreciated though.
I just talked to him about optimizing the kingdom and he mentioned that he's going to help because his character wants to see their kingdom come (so to speak). So it looks like the problem is solved ... for the time being at the very least. It might rear it head up again at some point. And I am glad that it was that easy to handle.
Thank you everyone for your help.
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Sounds like he's a Major D-Bag. If he won't specify what he doesn't like about them and offer a constructive alternative, I would tell him to find another game. The kingdom building and mass combat rules are a team effort anyway, so it isn't as if his character is losing anything from a bad economy roll.I think you are judging too fast. If I buy a Madden game, I expect to move characters around a football field. If the game is actually a combination of spreadsheets and rhythm game, I would be pissed. That rhythm/spreadsheet game could be very popular but it isn't what I thought I was getting. There are a lot of players who just want to kick in doors and fight bad guys. There's nothing wrong with that unless others want something else. Either compromise, change games or change players. Just because the player doesn't like the new thing doesn't mean he is bad person. He could be but you don't know enough.
It is hard to join a Kingmaker AP and NOT KNOW that you will eventually have to manage a build a kingdom.
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Sounds like he's a Major D-Bag. If he won't specify what he doesn't like about them and offer a constructive alternative, I would tell him to find another game. The kingdom building and mass combat rules are a team effort anyway, so it isn't as if his character is losing anything from a bad economy roll.I think you are judging too fast. If I buy a Madden game, I expect to move characters around a football field. If the game is actually a combination of spreadsheets and rhythm game, I would be pissed. That rhythm/spreadsheet game could be very popular but it isn't what I thought I was getting. There are a lot of players who just want to kick in doors and fight bad guys. There's nothing wrong with that unless others want something else. Either compromise, change games or change players. Just because the player doesn't like the new thing doesn't mean he is bad person. He could be but you don't know enough.
You are indeed right in regards to expectations and as it pertains to Madden.
Kingmaker otoh was not secretive about the style of game it will shape up to be - depending on how transparent the GM was before the game started
That being said - I don't think the judgement - (though perhaps a bit harsh and premature) - wasn't so much about the individual having a prejudiced set of expectations - but more about some of the ancillary depictions the op mentioned which is seperate from how he may or may not have expected the campaign to be about. ie the loudest voice, needing the spotlight, and this quote specifically:
"3) I would call him one of the loudest voices in the room. But when he goes on about how he is not excited about X or Y or whatever and the rest of the group disagrees, the rest of the group gets real quiet."
I had a player that exhibited much of the same traits ad nauseum and worse - and indeed was a very big d-bag. So when I read this, my d-bag detector was indeed on, but I wasn't convinced of it (and after dealing w/ previous players with that personality that ruined games, I'm a bit sensitive to it).
I'm glad things are working out Dale. I think you took the right approach.
Robert
One method that could keep everyone happy is to do all the kingdom building via email (or similar) between games. That way, the players who like the kingdom building get to immerse themselves in it, while the player(s) who don't won't have to spend in-game time devoted to it.
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That is definitely one way to handle it. I have tried doing this with my group - but unfortunately there is so much discussion involved with every choice they want to make - it takes forever to close out one turn. They prefer to do it in person so as to have a more cohesive discussion w/ real time Q&A.
My suggestion is that if you do run the kingdom building via online media between games, to try and save some of good "EVENTS" for that weeks sit down table top game.
This also gives you time to really work on a good one.
Robert