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These are archetypes I saw elsewhere, and made a few adjustments to.
Could I get some advice on the power of them? Are they OP? UP? They're for a game this saturday.
Unarmored Fighter
Lose: Armor Training, Armor Mastery, Medium and Heavy Armor Proficiency, Shield Proficiency, Tower Shield Proficiency
Gain: Good Reflex Save, Monk-like AC Progression (Int Based).
Unarmed Fighter
Lose: Martial Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Training
Gain: Unarmed Strike - fighter levels count as and stack with monk levels for this purpose.
Versatile Fighter
Lose: One Fighter Bonus feat
Gain: 4 skill points per level
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Losing one feat to gain 2 extra skill points per level seems too good a deal, IMO.
Yeah that was my initial thought too, but nobody seemed to mind when I saw it posted earlier by someone else so I thought I'd look into it and ask around.
* Class Base + Int => Class Base - 1(Minimum 2) + Int + Wis.
It accompanies this change:
* Will Save: Cha Based instead of Wis. (Make Cha less of a dump stat overall)
What would be a fair trade for the extra 2 skill points per level? 2 feats?
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Losing one feat to gain 2 extra skill points per level seems too good a deal, IMO.
They were a fighter option in the Pathfinder Chronicles: Campaign Setting called Martial Academies. I have been using them for about 2 years now and they are good but not too good. Was meant for 3.5 and you lost your first level fighter bonus feat, gained (4+Int)*4 skill points at first level, 4+Int per each additional level, and added 6 skills to the class list. 1 skill was added to the Pathfinder fighter base class list and 4 of the others were combined into 2 skills.
Unarmored Fighter
Lose: Armor Training, Armor Mastery, Medium and Heavy Armor Proficiency, Shield Proficiency, Tower Shield Proficiency
Gain: Good Reflex Save, Monk-like AC Progression (Int Based).Unarmed Fighter
Lose: Martial Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Training
Gain: Unarmed Strike - fighter levels count as and stack with monk levels for this purpose.Versatile Fighter
Lose: One Fighter Bonus feat
Gain: 4 skill points per level
I like the unarmored fighter option.
Unarmed fighter is good if you are talking about the monks damage progression and flurry of blows. But I would include the simple weapons of the monk list (club, crossbow {light or heavy}, dagger, javelin, quarterstaff, shortspear, sling, and spear) but not the martial or monk weapons.
Versatile fighter is definitely good, but add a couple skills to class if GM okays.
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I like the feat, though I do have to wonder if it's too good to be a single feat, as mentioned above.
You have attended a war college or fighter school.
Prerequisites: This feat can be selected at first level if you are selecting fighter as your first class.
Benefit: Your fighter class has 4 + Int modifier skill ranks per level. Add 3 skills of your choice to the list of class skills. One of those skills must be a Knowledge skill.
Normal: A fighter has 2 + Int modifier skill ranks per level.
Special: You may select a specific martial academy if allowed by the GM. A fighter may select this feat as his first level bonus feat and can not be exchanged for a different feat.
How about a more general version of the feat? Again though, it could be too good for a feat.
You have received some formal education which improve your skills.
Prerequisites: Int 13 or higher.
Benefit: Choose one of your classes. That class has 2 additional skill ranks per level. Add 3 skills of your choice to the list of class skills. One of those skills must be a Knowledge skill. Any new skill points are added retroactively if applicable.
Normal: The class has however many ranks per level as normally mentioned.
Special: This feat may be chosen multiple times. It's benefits do not stack. Instead, each time it is taken it applies to a different class.
You have received some formal education which improve your skills.
Prerequisites: Int 13 or higher.
Benefit: You receive 2 additional skill ranks per level, in addition to those granted by your class and ability scores. Any new skill points are added retroactively if applicable.
Normal: You receive a number of skill points based on your class, added to your int modifier, at each level.
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I like the unarmored fighter option.
Unarmed fighter is good if you are talking about the monks damage progression and flurry of blows. But I would include the simple weapons of the monk list (club, crossbow {light or heavy}, dagger, javelin, quarterstaff, shortspear, sling, and spear) but not the martial or monk weapons.
Versatile fighter is definitely good, but add a couple skills to class if GM okays.
For unarmed fighter I was just thinking the damage progression. It wouldn't grant the TWF Feats like the monk does. (But they could still take the twf feats with their fighter feats.) Is that too weak? Maybe up the damage one die type or something if it is?
They aren't losing their simple weapons, they'd have all simple weapons, they'd just lose the martial weapons.
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For unarmed fighter I was just thinking the damage progression. It wouldn't grant the TWF Feats like the monk does. (But they could still take the twf feats with their fighter feats.) Is that too weak? Maybe up the damage one die type or something if it is?
After a lil thinking, I would allow for a player in my campaign to trade the martial weapon proficiency and weapon training abilities for the unarmed strike and flurry of blows abilities of the monk.
I would probably go with the second version of Versatile Training. There are already feats and traits that allow additional class skills, so adding one that adds ranks would fill a gap without trying to compete with existing material.
For unarmed fighter I was just thinking the damage progression. It wouldn't grant the TWF Feats like the monk does. (But they could still take the twf feats with their fighter feats.) Is that too weak? Maybe up the damage one die type or something if it is?After a lil thinking, I would allow for a player in my campaign to trade the martial weapon proficiency and weapon training abilities for the unarmed strike and flurry of blows abilities of the monk.
It appears I have a twin.
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I would probably go with the second version of Versatile Training. There are already feats and traits that allow additional class skills, so adding one that adds ranks would fill a gap without trying to compete with existing material.
The first one is class specific, the second one you get 2 extra per level regardless of which class it's in.
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For unarmed fighter I was just thinking the damage progression. It wouldn't grant the TWF Feats like the monk does. (But they could still take the twf feats with their fighter feats.) Is that too weak? Maybe up the damage one die type or something if it is?After a lil thinking, I would allow for a player in my campaign to trade the martial weapon proficiency and weapon training abilities for the unarmed strike and flurry of blows abilities of the monk.
So you think all martial weapon proficiencies by itself is equivalent to the monk Damage bonus?
And then by extension: FoB (or the TWF Chain, as they're pretty much the same) is equivalent to the weapon training class abilities?
Unarmed Fighter: At 20th level, 2d10 + Wpn Spec/Greater would give you average damage of 15 per hit. Comparatively, a standard greatsword Fighter would get 2d6 + Spec/Greater and a +4 from Weapon Training, so again 15 damage, but with a +20% better chance to hit as well, and that loss of accuracy combined with no x1.5 on Power Attacks makes an Unarmed Fighter look worse.
An Unarmed Fighter will likely be more than 20% worse at combat maneuvers (since a maneuver-focused character can use a weapon that grants a bonus, while unarmed never will.) It could make a decent grappler at least, but grappling's somewhat limited in application, not really warranting a build around it without some serious numbers backing it.
I think this Fighter would either want a reduced unarmed damage growth in exchange for Weapon Training: Unarmed, or some more specialties that make unarmed combat more appealing.
Unarmored Fighter: I could see an Unarmored Fighter wanting a shield perhaps. You can't really pull off "flighty guy with a shield" as a Duelist for example, and the unarmored Barbarian variant would be nerfed pretty badly on Strength with a shield, so I could see a niche here... I would still be okay with you removing shield proficiency, though the ability to Feat it back in and not lose the unarmored bonus might be worth a consideration. It's still a Fighter after all... just because you're not wearing plate mail doesn't mean the classic sword and board wouldn't be appropriate for some characters. (I'm partly picturing Sophitia from Soul Calibur when I say this... sorry if the reference is lost on you.)
Versatile Fighter: I think I've got a possible solution. Remove Fighter-exclusive Feats from their lost of Bonus Feats, so no Weapon Specialization and the like (but still things like Power Attack, Weapon Focus, etc.). Since that REALLY hurts most Fighters, give them the a bit of a perk by letting them add Skill Focus plus any +2/+2 Skill-boosting Feats - they might not want to take them, but with the reduced Combat Feats available to them, they might decide to master a couple of their newfound skills. A Fighter who can afford to crank Intimidate or Use Magic Device is quite an interesting Fighter build.
Alternately, instead of giving 4+ Int, you could replace Weapon Training with Skill Training. Create several packages of thematic skills (each with at least one that isn't ordinarily a Fighter's class skill.) If a Fighter trains in that skill package, he'll add them to his class skill list and get a +1 bonus to all the listed skills (which grows like the Fighter's Weapon sets grow.)
You could have a social skill set with Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Knowledge Nobility, etc.; an athletics set with Climb, Swim, Acrobatics, Fly; a magic set with Knowledge Arcana, Use Magic Device, Spellcraft; academics with Linguistics, Knowledge Engineering, Knowledge History, etc.; naturalism with Survival, Handle Animal, Knowledge Nature; mercantile with Appraise, Craft, Profession; chicanery with Bluff, Sleight of Hand, Stealth...
The "counts as class skills" aspect would reduce some of the Traits manipulation players have to do to make Fighters with any noteworthy skills, while the broad +4/+3/+2/+1 bonuses would give a Fighter a general smattering of handy skills rather than a purely focused and maxed out set that someone like a Rogue has the luxury of building.
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I like the feat, though I do have to wonder if it's too good to be a single feat, as mentioned above.
** spoiler omitted **
How about a more general version of the feat? Again though, it could be
ACADEMIC
You have attended an academy, college, or school.Prerequisites: This feat must be selected at first level and only applies to the favored class you took at 1st level.
Benefit: Your favored class gains an additional two skill ranks per level. Add three skills of your choice to the list of class skills. One of those skills must be a Knowledge skill.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as his first level bonus feat and can not be exchanged for a different feat. A fighter may select a specific martial academy if allowed by the GM.
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Unarmed Fighter: At 20th level, 2d10 + Wpn Spec/Greater would give you average damage of 15 per hit. Comparatively, a standard greatsword Fighter would get 2d6 + Spec/Greater and a +4 from Weapon Training, so again 15 damage, but with a +20% better chance to hit as well, and that loss of accuracy combined with no x1.5 on Power Attacks makes an Unarmed Fighter look worse.
An Unarmed Fighter will likely be more than 20% worse at combat maneuvers (since a maneuver-focused character can use a weapon that grants a bonus, while unarmed never will.) It could make a decent grappler at least, but grappling's somewhat limited in application, not really warranting a build around it without some serious numbers backing it.
I think this Fighter would either want a reduced unarmed damage growth in exchange for Weapon Training: Unarmed, or some more specialties that make unarmed combat more appealing.
This is the sort of analysis I was looking for.
How about:
Lose: Martial Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Training 2, Weapon Training 4
Gain: Unarmed Strike - As a monk of 3/4 your level (Minimum 1).
Unarmored Fighter: I could see an Unarmored Fighter wanting a shield perhaps. You can't really pull off "flighty guy with a shield" as a Duelist for example, and the unarmored Barbarian variant would be nerfed pretty badly on Strength with a shield, so I could see a niche here... I would still be okay with you removing shield proficiency, though the ability to Feat it back in and not lose the unarmored bonus might be worth a consideration. It's still a Fighter after all... just because you're not wearing plate mail doesn't mean the classic sword and board wouldn't be appropriate for some characters. (I'm partly picturing Sophitia from Soul Calibur when I say this... sorry if the reference is lost on you.)
Hmm. Or link, at least from older Zelda Games.
I added back regular shields, but not tower shields, still reasonable?
Lose: Armor Training, Armor Mastery, Medium and Heavy Armor Proficiency, Tower Shield Proficiency
Gain: Good Reflex Save, Monk-like AC Progression (Int Based, works with shields (but not tower shields)).
Versatile Fighter: I think I've got a possible solution. Remove Fighter-exclusive Feats from their lost of Bonus Feats, so no Weapon Specialization and the like (but still things like Power Attack, Weapon Focus, etc.). Since that REALLY hurts most Fighters, give them the a bit of a perk by letting them add Skill Focus plus any +2/+2 Skill-boosting Feats - they might not want to take them, but with the reduced...
I'm really liking the Feats we've been discussing for this option. It applies to other classes, and as a fighter you could take it at first level and the result would be about the same.
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Okay:
Skill Bonus Feats
Here's what we have for possibilities so far, and the differences between them.
You have attended a war college or fighter school.
Prerequisites: This feat can be selected at first level if you are selecting fighter as your first class.
Benefit: Your fighter class has 4 + Int modifier skill ranks per level. Add 3 skills of your choice to the list of class skills. One of those skills must be a Knowledge skill.
Normal: A fighter has 2 + Int modifier skill ranks per level.
Special: You may select a specific martial academy if allowed by the GM. A fighter may select this feat as his first level bonus feat and can not be exchanged for a different feat.
- based on the 3.5 campaign setting.
- First level of fighter only.
- +3 class skills
- has flavorful specific martial academy options.
You have attended an academy, college, or school.
Prerequisites: This feat must be selected at first level and only applies to the favored class you took at 1st level.
Benefit: Your favored class gains an additional two skill ranks per level. Add three skills of your choice to the list of class skills. One of those skills must be a Knowledge skill.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as his first level bonus feat and can not be exchanged for a different feat. A fighter may select a specific martial academy if allowed by the GM.
- First level only.
- +3 class skills
- has the same flavorful specific martial academy options (fighter only).
You have received some formal education which improve your skills.
Prerequisites: Int 13 or higher.
Benefit: Choose one of your classes. That class has 2 additional skill ranks per level. Add 3 skills of your choice to the list of class skills. One of those skills must be a Knowledge skill. Any new skill points are added retroactively if applicable.
Normal: The class has however many ranks per level as normally mentioned.
Special: This feat may be chosen multiple times. It's benefits do not stack. Instead, each time it is taken it applies to a different class.
Special: This feat counts as a bonus feat on any skill list, and if taken, can not be exchanged for a different feat. A fighter may select a specific martial academy if allowed by the GM.
- Bonus feat for any class
- Retroactive skill point gain
- +3 class skills
- has the same flavorful specific martial academy options (fighter only).
You have received some formal education which improve your skills.
Prerequisites: Int 13 or higher.
Benefit: You receive 2 additional skill ranks per level, in addition to those granted by your class and ability scores. Any new skill points are added retroactively if applicable.
Normal: You receive a number of skill points based on your class, added to your int modifier, at each level.
- Retroactive skill point gain.
Personally I like my two better, due to not being first level only - though the bottom one may be too good to be a feat, I'm not sure.
The Feats for more skills seem pretty fair to me. My suggestions just popped into my head upon seeing this topic, so I might refine them for future use, all the same.
I do like an Unarmored Fighter getting shields, but a tower shield would definitely impair your evasiveness, so yeah, that seems good.
I think those changes help the Unarmed Fighter. Actually, If this Fighter used their Feats on getting Two Weapon Fighting, they could emulate a Monk's Flurry, but they'd be doing x0.5 damage on their offhand (but still compensated by their damage boosts from being a Fighter.) You might want to crunch the numbers on this and see if it overwhelms the Monk.
I like Academic, it's potentially usable by anyone, which is a good feature in my book, and the 1st level and favored class requirement does two good things: provides a certain amount of built in background and limits the abuse to those who are willing to accept the attached plot hooks.
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I like Academic, it's potentially usable by anyone, which is a good feature in my book, and the 1st level and favored class requirement does two good things: provides a certain amount of built in background and limits the abuse to those who are willing to accept the attached plot hooks.
Actually on another read through I like Academic or Versatile Training V1 best.
I have a 5 gripes with academic, 1 rules based, 2 fluff based, and 2 more houserules based:
1. I dont think you have to choose your favored class at 1 (most people do, but in theory you dont have to.) I could start as a fighter, and want rogue as my favored class, but before I take the level in rogue something makes me change my mind.
2. I dont like first level only on something that I could reasonably justify later in the game, say if I attend a training academy of some kind.
3. I read favored class to be natural aptitude, and this is about training.
4. Some people (Read Me) don't like favored class: "Any" attached to all characters, and restrict favored class by race (I give them a choice of 2 per race, 3 if half-human, and any for human).
5. Some other people simply don't use favored classes, and therefore this feat is then of no use to them.
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I have a 5 gripes with academic, 1 rules based, 2 fluff based, and 2 more houserules based:
1. stuff
Just rule it in a way that makes sense to you. In my games 1st level is always the characters favored class.
Making the skill bonus count for all classes might be a little overpowered unless the 2 skill ranks have to be spent on only the 3 skills you selected.
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Making the skill bonus count for all classes might be a little overpowered unless the 2 skill ranks have to be spent on only the 3 skills you selected.
Oh that's a possibility.
I was thinking of using the first one. Counts for any one class, you can take it again to apply it to other classes (and get 3 more class skills).The one that I came up with that counted for all classes didnt give bonus class skills.
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Versatile Training
You have received some formal education which improve your skills.Prerequisites: Int 13 or higher.
Benefit: Choose one of your classes. That class has 2 additional skill ranks per level. Add 3 skills of your choice to the list of class skills. One of those skills must be a Knowledge skill. Any new skill points are added retroactively if applicable.
Normal: The class has however many ranks per level as normally mentioned.
Special: This feat may be chosen multiple times. It's benefits do not stack. Instead, each time it is taken it applies to a different class.
Special: This feat counts as a bonus feat on any skill list, and if taken, can not be exchanged for a different feat. A fighter may select a specific martial academy if allowed by the GM.
I'm still wondering though: Is this a fair feat? is it too good? Should it be toned down?