The Hiram Key, a book about ancient possible connections of Freemasonry to eqypt and the Old testament talks about the true origins of the hebrew people and a historical jesus. The authors did much research but i am sure there is plenty of theory too (as history tends to....)
A lot of theory, I suspect. But I admit to being fascinated by reading such materials. It's on an evergrowing pile of books I have in the den that I've picked up on the cheap and will eventually get around to reading.
If all else, a lot of these 'whodunit conspiracies' make for great material to mine from for a plot hook in a campaign. ;-)
Actually, that rule, while supremely important, takes a clear second place to the part people struggle with: Love God with all your heart, mind, soul. Have no other gods before Him.Honestly, if that WERE the sole piece of Christianity, I would be a Christian again in a heartbeat. But it's not and it doesn't pretend to be.Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
It goes beyond just being nice to one another. All else is but pointing to this. Honestly most religions come out much the same. From Buddha to Confucius, to some George Carlin routines.
Frankly, I have always viewed this as having a distinctly coercive element - A crude, mailed fist intended for those who can't or won't see the innate, unquestionable truth in the First Rule.
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Frankly, I have always viewed this as having a distinctly coercive element - A crude, mailed fist intended for those who can't or won't see the innate, unquestionable truth in the First Rule.Actually, that rule, while supremely important, takes a clear second place to the part people struggle with: Love God with all your heart, mind, soul. Have no other gods before Him.Honestly, if that WERE the sole piece of Christianity, I would be a Christian again in a heartbeat. But it's not and it doesn't pretend to be.Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
It goes beyond just being nice to one another. All else is but pointing to this. Honestly most religions come out much the same. From Buddha to Confucius, to some George Carlin routines.
That is, if I can say so, a very sad way to view things.
That is, if I can say so, a very sad way to view things.
Getting people to do the right thing for the sake of doing the right thing is incredibly difficult. It tends to get much easier when you use the cosmic carrot or the cosmic stick.
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That is, if I can say so, a very sad way to view things.Getting people to do the right thing for the sake of doing the right thing is incredibly difficult. It tends to get much easier when you use the cosmic carrot or the cosmic stick.
Easier but not the correct way to do something. Somethings are worth doing because it is right to do them. Neither I nor anyone else should be either forced nor coerced into doing the right thing. The mentality that this "has" to be done that way, or that this is the only way people or groups use. Blows my mind.
Be the example of the changes in life you wish to see.
Easier but not the correct way to do something. Somethings are worth doing because it is right to do them.
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Be the example of the changes in life you wish to see.
I completely agree... and I make great efforts to do what is right because that is a worthy end, but not because I'm chasing a cosmic carrot.
I just wish more people felt this way.
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Easier but not the correct way to do something. Somethings are worth doing because it is right to do them.
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Be the example of the changes in life you wish to see.
I completely agree... and I make great efforts to do what is right because that is a worthy end, but not because I'm chasing a cosmic carrot.
I just wish more people felt this way.
My issue is that you seem to think that a believer can not. When most, that I know of, who actually do believe, feel exactly this way.
My issue is that you seem to think that a believer can not. When most, that I know of, who actually do believe, feel exactly this way.Easier but not the correct way to do something. Somethings are worth doing because it is right to do them.
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Be the example of the changes in life you wish to see.
I completely agree... and I make great efforts to do what is right because that is a worthy end, but not because I'm chasing a cosmic carrot.
I just wish more people felt this way.
The question I have is, can both believer and non-believer do this?
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The question I have is, can both believer and non-believer do this?My issue is that you seem to think that a believer can not. When most, that I know of, who actually do believe, feel exactly this way.Easier but not the correct way to do something. Somethings are worth doing because it is right to do them.
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Be the example of the changes in life you wish to see.
I completely agree... and I make great efforts to do what is right because that is a worthy end, but not because I'm chasing a cosmic carrot.
I just wish more people felt this way.
My question is why are we not all doing this regardless of beliefs?
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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My question is why are we not all doing this regardless of beliefs?
Some are, some aren't. I suggest this is good reading.
If you do good things because they're good, then you are. If you do good things because you believe that you'll be punished by God by being sent to Hell, then you're not. I can't judge whether or not you're doing things for either reason, so to me, the result is more important. However, if you subscribe to the "faith is what saves you, not deeds" than you have less of a motive to act in a good way. If you subscribe to the "deeds prove better than words" camp, then you'll probably be inclined to act better because you're trying to live your faith. However, I would rather see people do the right thing because they've chosen to do the right thing because that motive seems like it would stand moral tests better than the fear of punishment model.
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My question is why are we not all doing this regardless of beliefs?Some are, some aren't. I suggest this is good reading.
If you do good things because they're good, then you are. If you do good things because you believe that you'll be punished by God by being sent to Hell, then you're not. I can't judge whether or not you're doing things for either reason, so to me, the result is more important. However, if you subscribe to the "faith is what saves you, not deeds" than you have less of a motive to act in a good way. If you subscribe to the "deeds prove better than words" camp, then you'll probably be inclined to act better because you're trying to live your faith. However, I would rather see people do the right thing because they've chosen to do the right thing because that motive seems like it would stand moral tests better than the fear of punishment model.
It is not about punishment. Those with Faith will have the deeds to back up their faith.
...if you subscribe to the "faith is what saves you, not deeds" than you have less of a motive to act in a good way...
On a personal level, I disagree with this assertion in some ways. As a Christian who believes in a plain interpretation of Scripture, I fully believe that once I accepted Christ, I was saved, as the Bible clearly teachers that it is faith, and not works, that saves us. This is logical to me, also; if we could be saved by works, then to me that would cheapen the necessity for Jesus' sacrifice.
However, at the same time, I also follow where we are later told that faith without works is dead; that is, if someone is a true Christian and wants to live their life by the tenants that Jesus taught when he lived, they will act on that good will not out of a sense of "I've gotta do this or I'm going to Hell." but out of a sense of gratitude and total humility towards Jesus' sacrifice for us. My personal view of it is that if Christ loved me enough that he would die for me while I was yet still an enemy of God, and I am called on to emulate Christ, I must strive for that same level of absolute, unconditional love, for no reason other than it's how I can show that I am genuine in my faith.
...if you subscribe to the "faith is what saves you, not deeds" than you have less of a motive to act in a good way...On a personal level, I disagree with this assertion in some ways. As a Christian who believes in a plain interpretation of Scripture, I fully believe that once I accepted Christ, I was saved, as the Bible clearly teachers that it is faith, and not works, that saves us. This is logical to me, also; if we could be saved by works, then to me that would cheapen the necessity for Jesus' sacrifice.
However, at the same time, I also follow where we are later told that faith without works is dead; that is, if someone is a true Christian and wants to live their life by the tenants that Jesus taught when he lived, they will act on that good will not out of a sense of "I've gotta do this or I'm going to Hell." but out of a sense of gratitude and total humility towards Jesus' sacrifice for us. My personal view of it is that if Christ loved me enough that he would die for me while I was yet still an enemy of God, and I am called on to emulate Christ, I must strive for that same level of absolute, unconditional love, for no reason other than it's how I can show that I am genuine in my faith.
What would acts without the backup of faith be, then?
What would acts without the backup of faith be, then?
A good act is a good act; my argument is only that if a Christian performs good deeds regularly, then the reason behind that from a Biblical perspective should not be to keep him/herself out of Hell but as a show of gratitude for Christ's sacrifice for him/her.
Those with Faith will have the deeds to back up their faith.
By this token, anyone who shows an overt lack of good deeds -- or an ongoing catalogue of bad ones -- can be rightly assumed to have a lack of faith? Or do you look at a person's faith first and then define how good their deeds are based on that?
An ugly question, CJ- Is the Good Samaritan going to hell regardless of what he did that day?
An ugly question, CJ- Is the Good Samaritan going to hell regardless of what he did that day?The Good Samaritan is an imaginary person created to explain who a "neighbor" is and had nothing to do with an afterlife.
I am aware it is probably a parable not based in reality, but I still hold up the spirit of the question as opposed to anything else.
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I am aware it is probably a parable not based in reality, but I still hold up the spirit of the question as opposed to anything else.An ugly question, CJ- Is the Good Samaritan going to hell regardless of what he did that day?The Good Samaritan is an imaginary person created to explain who a "neighbor" is and had nothing to do with an afterlife.
I know. The problem is that it was a story to demonstrate one very specific point.
Is the Good Samaritan going to heaven because he did one good deed? No
Is the Good Samaritan going to heaven because of who he is? Don't know -- that's God's call.
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Those with Faith will have the deeds to back up their faith.By this token, anyone who shows an overt lack of good deeds -- or an ongoing catalogue of bad ones -- can be rightly assumed to have a lack of faith? Or do you look at a person's faith first and then define how good their deeds are based on that?
Neither, Actions flow from belief. Not acting on your beliefs is as hypocritical as acting yet not believing.
An ugly question, CJ- Is the Good Samaritan going to hell regardless of what he did that day?
I once got most of a room of Christians to go dead silent and give me dirty looks when I pointed out that the Samaritans weren't just some random racial group but actually members of a slightly different religious tradition that the then-current Jewish community loathed, and here Jesus is praising one of them above the religious leaders of just that community.
I guess Jesus would never, ever have said something to imply that there were good and bad people of all faiths and it was very rude of me to suggest that he did. I should probably be very sorry for being so uncivil.
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An ugly question, CJ- Is the Good Samaritan going to hell regardless of what he did that day?I once got most of a room of Christians to go dead silent and give me dirty looks when I pointed out that the Samaritans weren't just some random racial group but actually members of a slightly different religious tradition that the then-current Jewish community loathed, and here Jesus is praising one of them above the religious leaders of just that community.
I guess Jesus would never, ever have said something to imply that there were good and bad people of all faiths and it was very rude of me to suggest that he did. I should probably be very sorry for being so uncivil.
I've done similar things. Some people are just not ready to hear that.
Actions flow from belief.
Yet I have no belief in God, but do many of what I consider good works. Are those works therefore bad? Or doed that mean I subconsciously have belief? Or that having no belief is the way to good works?
Not acting on your beliefs is as hypocritical as acting yet not believing.
Oh, wait, I'm a hypocrite, for doing good works yet not believing? Surely you don't mean that.
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To let you off the hook a bit: I'm not seriously accusing you of any that, merely pointing out what those terse statements really say. This is an issue, I think, that a 2-line Yoda-like statement doesn't really summarize at all well.
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An ugly question, CJ- Is the Good Samaritan going to hell regardless of what he did that day?I once got most of a room of Christians to go dead silent and give me dirty looks when I pointed out that the Samaritans weren't just some random racial group but actually members of a slightly different religious tradition that the then-current Jewish community loathed, and here Jesus is praising one of them above the religious leaders of just that community.
I guess Jesus would never, ever have said something to imply that there were good and bad people of all faiths and it was very rude of me to suggest that he did. I should probably be very sorry for being so uncivil.
well that was what the Samaritans were, and are since there are still very small groups around. If they did not know this, then they missed half the reason for the Parable.
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Actions flow from belief.Yet I have no belief in God, but do many of what I consider good works. Are those works therefore bad? Or doed that mean I subconsciously have belief? Or that having no belief is the way to good works?
Not acting on your beliefs is as hypocritical as acting yet not believing.Oh, wait, I'm a hypocrite, for doing good works yet not believing? Surely you don't mean that.
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To let you off the hook a bit: I'm not seriously accusing you of any that, merely pointing out what those terse statements really say. This is an issue, I think, that a 2-line Yoda-like statement doesn't really summarize at all well.
very true and I have tried my best to write more then 1 line but we are busy today and I am at work. 1 or 2 lines is the best I can handle right now.
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For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
The Christian Bible is very specifically, horrifyingly, clear on this topic. Everyone who does not believe in Jesus is condemned by original sin. No exceptions, no matter how good a person you are; if you were to somehow bring about world peace and harmony without doing it in Jesus' name, well, that's nice, but heaven has a dress code. You have to wear your I'm with Jesus t-shirt and hat or no admittance.
For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Well, everyone, except, you know, those who aren't part of "everyone."
It seems, even the t-shirt and hat are no guarantee:“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
So, it's pretty clear if you don't believe in Jesus you're condemned. And if believe in Jesus he can still deny you, even if you've worked miracles in his name. You have to do what the Father wants you to do. Will that pork sandwich you were thinking of having for lunch send you to hell?
This is part of the mystery of Christianity. Damn, it's also kind of off topic.