Hi,
I know I'm probably in the minority here, but I want to voice my concerns. I think Paizo may be working on too many "core" products, too quickly, and they are getting out too soon.
Now, before you say the new classes/mechanics (ie words of power) are all optional and not "official" or anything, I respond: A 20-lev base class is "core" enough; and I think that -- if one gets published -- it has to be refined and balanced enough to be 100% official (think APG).
So, I'd rather have a single, well-developed hardbound book every year (or even 18 months) than the current, announced avalanche. I'm excited as everyone for the gunslinger, magus and words of power; I simply believe that they need much more playtesting to be bulletproof & a worthy addition to the system.
We already have 18 base classes, do we really need 4 more in the next 6 months? Paizo thrives because so far it's been protecting the system, that's its first and foremost mission. I cannot but fear a wotc-like devolution, and that would be much worse than waiting a few months for a new class...
thanks,
Stefano
I think your concern has been dealt with very very extensivly in the class-bloat thread.
In short, no need to worry about further class-bloat, there will be other books, they have to make money, but quality should stay as good as it is.
I think your concern has been dealt with very very extensivly in the class-bloat thread.
In short, no need to worry about further class-bloat, there will be other books, they have to make money, but quality should stay as good as it is.
Great. But what about words of power? That sort of thing could be a real revolution in the history of D&D, but it would need many, many months of testing and care.
If it gets published hastily, and with plenty of errata, it'll just be a curiosity that nobody actually uses and will be soon forgotten (and that would burn away the chance of it actually getting developed and adopted).You say "quality as good as it is", but sadly I have to say that the quality (of the cruch -- fluff is great, as usual) has already began to go down.
Oh well, let's hope for the best. Just remember, Paizo: pushing books forward to improve them will never remembered as a bad choice, afterwards!
Great. But what about words of power? That sort of thing could be a real revolution in the history of D&D, but it would need many, many months of testing and care.
If it gets published hastily, and with plenty of errata, it'll just be a curiosity that nobody actually uses and will be soon forgotten (and that would burn away the chance of it actually getting developed and adopted).
Well for one thing, Words of Power is an optional rules set an and it is not critical to Pathfinder. Also, Not only do we know Paizo has been working on playtesting it, they made it an open playtest.
Paizo doesn't have to open their playtests to their consumers. They could do what most RPG companies do and put out their books and tell you to deal with it. This shows commitment to the fan base and should earn them a bit more trust.
Paizo doesn't have to open their playtests to their consumers. They could do what most RPG companies do and put out their books and tell you to deal with it. This shows commitment to the fan base and should earn them a bit more trust.
Don't get me wrong: of course, I know they are committed to quality etc etc. I do trust them. I'm simply afraid they'll going to release too many books in too short a time, when there's no need to do so and, fatally, this will have an impact on quality.
Since the majority of fans, when something is announced, react like "OMG yes! I want it now!", I just wanted to tell them to take their time. It's not that there's a shortage of material to play, again, thanks to them :)
later,
S
PS about words of power in particular, I have to say that I find it incredibly promising, but let's say it, what we've been seeing in the beta is very, very "beta" for a product allegedly out in 3 months... this is not an extra class that one can always ignore, it's a whole overhaul of a core system. It's bound to require much more than that to really work.
Paizo doesn't have to open their playtests to their consumers. They could do what most RPG companies do and put out their books and tell you to deal with it. This shows commitment to the fan base and should earn them a bit more trust.Don't get me wrong: of course, I know they are committed to quality etc etc. I do trust them. I'm simply afraid they'll going to release too many books in too short a time, when there's no need to do so and, fatally, this will have an impact on quality.
Since the majority of fans, when something is announced, react like "OMG yes! I want it now!", I just wanted to tell them to take their time. It's not that there's a shortage of material to play, again, thanks to them :)
later,
SPS about words of power in particular, I have to say that I find it incredibly promising, but let's say it, what we've been seeing in the beta is very, very "beta" for a product allegedly out in 3 months... this is not an extra class that one can always ignore, it's a whole overhaul of a core system. It's bound to require much more than that to really work.
They put out about 3 or 4 books a year compared to the 12 or more WoTC was putting out. They will be ok. It is not a system overhaul. It is a different option to use. You seem to forget they have been working on this for a while, and it is not just a a 3 month venture.
Creative Director
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PS about words of power in particular, I have to say that I find it incredibly promising, but let's say it, what we've been seeing in the beta is very, very "beta" for a product allegedly out in 3 months... this is not an extra class that one can always ignore, it's a whole overhaul of a core system. It's bound to require much more than that to really work.
We generally don't maintain public eyes on the final product of a playtest as a general rule, for several reasons. Not the least being at some point we need to be able to make a decision and stick to it—when something's in public playtest, that's a lot tougher to do. And also, there's the simple fact that we want to build anticipation for a release, and part of that anticipation is the excitement of finding out how something finally shook out after the playtest and development.
Words of Power are very much an experiment for us. Up until we did this, we mostly worked on game rules that we were pretty sure were solid already, and the playtest results were relatively easy to interpret since these rules were building on proven concepts. Words of Power, on the other hand, are pretty radically new—and no matter HOW long they stayed in playtest, there's a chance that they'd end up becoming a curiosity in the end anyway. That's why they're a relatively small part of "Ultimate Magic" and why they're kind of "quarrantined" off in their own chapter, similar to how we handled other optional rules in the APG (hero points and traits). In any event, the Words of Power system received a LOT more work than what folks saw in the playtest.
As for the speed in which we're putting out books... we're still dedicated to 3 rulebooks a year. That's a pretty small fraction compared to the amount of books WotC put out, and it took several years in my opinion to get overloaded there.
The main reason we're putting so many of these base classes into these first few rulebook expansions is simple—we want them out at the start of the game's lifecycle, not spread out all through it or popping up at the end. With these 20 level classes being out by this Gen Con, we can then get to the business of providing support for them rather than leaving them out to dry and ignoring them.
(And yes, the plan is to not have many more base classes after Ultimate Combat—that's not a promise, but it's getting increasingly difficult in house to come up with new concepts that DESERVE to be a new base class, since the ones we have already do the job for most character concepts quite well, even BEFORE you start messing around with archetypes.)
As for the speed in which we're putting out books... we're still dedicated to 3 rulebooks a year.
Ok, great. Thanks a lot for the reply! I hope you understand that I was only concerned. I have to say, it does make sense to get the system "out" as soon as possibile and then hammer it to perfection in the next years...
To close the topic, I want to repeat again that I'm a huge fan -- I'm reading the Serpent's Skull AP and boy, that stuff is EPIC :)
I want to repeat again that I'm a huge fan -- I'm reading the Serpent's Skull AP and boy, that stuff is EPIC :)
Epic?
:)
We generally don't maintain public eyes on the final product of a playtest as a general rule, for several reasons. Not the least being at some point we need to be able to make a decision and stick to it—when something's in public playtest, that's a lot tougher to do. And also, there's the simple fact that we want to build anticipation for a release, and part of that anticipation is the excitement of finding out how something finally shook out after the playtest and development.Words of Power are very much an experiment for us. Up until we did this, we mostly worked on game rules that we were pretty sure were solid already, and the playtest results were relatively easy to interpret since these rules were building on proven concepts. Words of Power, on the other hand, are pretty radically new—and no matter HOW long they stayed in playtest, there's a chance that they'd end up becoming a curiosity in the end anyway. That's why they're a relatively small part of "Ultimate Magic" and why they're kind of "quarrantined" off in their own chapter, similar to how we handled other optional rules in the APG (hero points and traits). In any event, the Words of Power system received a LOT more work than what folks saw in the playtest.
As for the speed in which we're putting out books... we're still dedicated to 3 rulebooks a year. That's a pretty small fraction compared to the amount of books WotC put out, and it took several years in my opinion to get overloaded there.
The main reason we're putting so many of these base classes into these first few rulebook expansions is simple—we want them out at the start of the game's...
Nicely laid out. I wish all the "class bloat" worriers could have read this. It's what I had hoped for from Paizo. It's nice to see you live up to my hopes and not their fears :)
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Nicely laid out. I wish all the "class bloat" worriers could have read this. It's what I had hoped for from Paizo. It's nice to see you live up to my hopes and not their fears :)
We generally don't maintain public eyes on the final product of a playtest as a general rule, for several reasons. Not the least being at some point we need to be able to make a decision and stick to it—when something's in public playtest, that's a lot tougher to do. And also, there's the simple fact that we want to build anticipation for a release, and part of that anticipation is the excitement of finding out how something finally shook out after the playtest and development.Words of Power are very much an experiment for us. Up until we did this, we mostly worked on game rules that we were pretty sure were solid already, and the playtest results were relatively easy to interpret since these rules were building on proven concepts. Words of Power, on the other hand, are pretty radically new—and no matter HOW long they stayed in playtest, there's a chance that they'd end up becoming a curiosity in the end anyway. That's why they're a relatively small part of "Ultimate Magic" and why they're kind of "quarrantined" off in their own chapter, similar to how we handled other optional rules in the APG (hero points and traits). In any event, the Words of Power system received a LOT more work than what folks saw in the playtest.
As for the speed in which we're putting out books... we're still dedicated to 3 rulebooks a year. That's a pretty small fraction compared to the amount of books WotC put out, and it took several years in my opinion to get overloaded there.
The main reason we're putting so many of these base classes into these first few rulebook expansions is simple—we want them out at the start of the game's...
+1.