At what point in the AP did you introduce the history of Allevrah and House Azrinae to your players?
At what point in the AP did you introduce the history of Allevrah and House Azrinae to your players?
I've just finished running my players thru Children of the Void, and introduced a bit of information on Allevrah in the journal the players find after killing the Drow on Devil Elbow. I plan on fully covering her history with the Drow during Dencent into Darkness, and her full history in a Memory of Darkness.
At what point in the AP did you introduce the history of Allevrah and House Azrinae to your players?I've just finished running my players thru Children of the Void, and introduced a bit of information on Allevrah in the journal the players find after killing the Drow on Devil Elbow. I plan on fully covering her history with the Drow during Dencent into Darkness, and her full history in a Memory of Darkness.
I did the same thing with the journal......thanks for the tip with the rest.
What information did you give them in the journals?
What information did you give them in the journals?
Basically the info provided in Shindiira's backstory. About how Allevrah arrived in Zirnakaynin several years ago (I went with 10 since I have no idea what her timeline is) and seized control of House Azrinae. I tried to make it apparent that Shindiira, Depora, and Nolveniss are all her pawns. That and that the ritual for pulling down stars was her creation. I decided to make it apparent to my players early on who the big bad guy is.
I kept the actual information on her rather scarce, other than having Shindiira mention how sudden her appearance was. I wanted to play up Nolveniss as the more immediate threat. They'll have plenty of time to learn more about Allevrah in Decent into Midnight.
Other than that the rest of the info was basically just Shindiira complaining about Celwynvian and the "elven pretenders false claims to the land that they abandoned." I decided to play up the whole Drow thought on how the other elves fled the world and so they no longer have a claim to it.
Oh, and I also played up on how great she thinks Nolveniss is. I decided to let it drop that Nolveniss is an Illusionist. I like to let my players try to plan ahead. Sadly this usually falls into the whole "give them enough rope to hang themselves with" kind of situation. Hope this helps!
Yeah thanks that helps they head to the boneyard next game
Yeah thanks that helps they head to the boneyard next game
Heh, that was a fun fight... but my players seem to remember the random encounter with a pair of cockroach swarms on their way to it more than the fight with the wererats... ;p
Coachroch swarms are bad ass
Im pumping the level by one in my adventure so I was going to give the swarm 2 extra HD then I looked and it would increase their damage and the party is going to have a hard enough time dealing with it, with the lack of casting in the party
I might make a 4th wererat if all five players show up
Coachroch swarms are bad ass
Im pumping the level by one in my adventure so I was going to give the swarm 2 extra HD then I looked and it would increase their damage and the party is going to have a hard enough time dealing with it, with the lack of casting in the party
I might make a 4th wererat if all five players show up
Yeah there are five characters in my game so I've been upping the number of creatures in all the encounters. I find quantity over quality seems to work with keeping my players alive.
What information did you give them in the journals?
Here's the information the PCs got in Riddleport. (Scroll down toward the italics at the bottom of the post.) I let Depora get away on purpose, mostly because I loved the visual of her running up the Cyphergate and jumping off.
The PCs were able to find further information on Devil's Elbow after fighting the drow there. (Italics toward the bottom again.)
After they met up with the elves in the Mierani Forest, they got to hear the elves' side of the story. (Look for The Lay of the Secret War toward the bottom.)
You made a lot of changes seems kinda cool
Leaving a journal behind that oh-so-conveniently describes the story is one way. What are other ways for PCs to get that kind of information? I had though of:
* A rescued hostage that overheard some conversion
* A dead hostage and speak with dead
* Rather than the smart bad guy having the journal, it's a the no-so-smart, jealous henchman having the journal
* Captured bad guys
* Legend Lore or other divinations on equipment left behind?
Other ideas?
You made a lot of changes seems kinda cool
I had the benefit of reading some of the complaints other people posted about the later installments so was able to start working toward smoothing them out earlier. One of the problems with a multi-authored AP is important things suddenly popping up in one book that have never been alluded to earlier. A particular concern raised was: Why would disguised PCs looking for information about House Azrinae take jobs with House Vonnarc? By planting the information early on that Vonnarc was working with Azrinae, I made the elves able to specifically suggest the PCs infiltrate House Vonnarc when they went undercover.
DMFTodd, I agree that the conveniently-left-behind journal is kind of an obvious plot-delivery-method. The problem is that the first packet of information is set to be found at the end of the first part, when speak with dead and legend lore won't be available to the PCs yet. Fluff-wise, I had a problem with letting the big bad mysterious drow able to be Intimidated by a low-level PC, no matter what kind of Initimidating-Prowess-fueled roll they came up with; it cheapens the reputation of the race, imo.
Later on, I did allow a captive to give the PCs some information, not because he was intimidated but just because he had a bit of a grudge against some of his superiors and didn't mind selling them out a little, since he was a prisoner of the elves and wouldn't have to return to face them. I also figured the drow were smart enough not to speak in Common or Elven on the surface where they could be overheard; even their journals were written in Undercommon, which made the PCs seek out a translator and then spend a rank in Linguistics so they wouldn't need to rely on one anymore.
* Rather than the smart bad guy having the journal, it's a the no-so-smart, jealous henchman having the journal
Both the leaders in the two books are jealous henchwoman of Novilis
I had the benefit of reading some of the complaints other people posted about the later installments so was able to start working toward smoothing them out earlier. One of the problems with a multi-authored AP is important things suddenly popping up in one book that have never been alluded to earlier. A particular concern raised was: Why would disguised PCs looking for information about House Azrinae take jobs with House Vonnarc? By planting the information early on that Vonnarc was working with Azrinae, I made the elves able to specifically suggest the PCs infiltrate House Vonnarc when they went undercover.DMFTodd, I agree that the conveniently-left-behind journal is kind of an obvious plot-delivery-method. The problem is that the first packet of information is set to be found at the end of the first part, when speak with dead and legend lore won't be available to the PCs yet. Fluff-wise, I had a problem with letting the big bad mysterious drow able to be Intimidated by a low-level PC, no matter what kind of Initimidating-Prowess-fueled roll they came up with; it cheapens the reputation of the race, imo.
Later on, I did allow a captive to give the PCs some information, not because he was intimidated but just because he had a bit of a grudge against some of his superiors and didn't mind selling them out a little, since he was a prisoner of the elves and wouldn't have to return to face them. I also figured the drow were smart enough not to speak in Common or Elven on the surface where they could be overheard; even their journals were written in Undercommon, which made the PCs seek out a translator and then spend a rank in Linguistics so they wouldn't need to rely on one anymore.
Yeah Im going to be stealing bits and pieces the Teeth will be the boat that the drow have been using to get supplys
And now that the drow have control of the island with Clegg the Teeth will be used as a guard ship and attack any ship coming to the island
And the Teeth will be the boat that she trys to jump into and will do the same thing with her tearing out part of the journal as they come in and the dretches hold them off as she fills them with arrows.
My party might take prisnors but im not sure so they elves might be bringing them a boat, I find thats a good way to tie in the mordant spire elves
So Ill be scouring your stuff and reading most of it to steal ideas
If they take Depora
is it to early to give them this also?
There are those in Zirnakaynin, unimaginable as it may seem, who are unwilling to send their sons to serve our race in its glorious quest. When our work is complete and our enemies crushed to earth or reduced to frozen savages beneath skies of endless night, the shirkers will be justly condemned and enslaved, and House Azrinae, with its servant House Vonnarc, will be the unquestioned rulers of both the Darklands below and the new Darklands above! Then, those who puled and whined over the deaths of their worthless sons and slaves will be as the pale elves.
The information obtained by Nolveniss and his underlings from the construction and then the use of the Armageddon Echo fully justifies the deaths of any and all of our foot soldiers who have fallen in our attempts to hold Celwynvian. How I long to be there with him to witness over and over again the suffering and death of our enemies! However, I know that my part, too, here at the foot of the Thassilonian artifact, has contributed to the great achievement of our race. With the fall of rock today, I know that our test nears its successful culmination. Soon, we will have the absolute proof we have needed: We can recreate Earthfall!!
I had the benefit of reading some of the complaints other people posted about the later installments so was able to start working toward smoothing them out earlier. One of the problems with a multi-authored AP is important things suddenly popping up in one book that have never been alluded to earlier. A particular concern raised was: Why would disguised PCs looking for information about House Azrinae take jobs with House Vonnarc? By planting the information early on that Vonnarc was working with Azrinae, I made the elves able to specifically suggest the PCs infiltrate House Vonnarc when they went undercover.
I don't quite understand where you're coming from with this. It is stated in book four that almost all of House Azrinae's forces are engaged in either Celwynvian or elsewhere (later revealed to be the Land of Black Blood). When the party makes their way to Zirnakaynin they have no way of knowing that House Azrinae is almost completely abandoned. It make sense that they would seek out "protection" in the first available place while planing their next move.
It's implied that House Vonnarc is at least somewhat opposed to House Azrinae (in the way that all Drow houses are constantly opposed), and it is outright stated that House Vonnarc has the best information networks in the city. I makes perfect sense, once the PC's have done a little fact-finding of their own. Add on to this that the cities Archmage is a member of the house, and it honestly seems like the most likely place to gather information.
I had no problems with the story as written, but your changes also seem to make sense. You of course know your players best. I guess in the end the difference is whether to present the drow as a unified force, or a chaotic rabble.
If they take Depora
is it to early to give them this also?
There are those in Zirnakaynin, unimaginable as it may seem, who are unwilling to send their sons to serve our race in its glorious quest. When our work is complete and our enemies crushed to earth or reduced to frozen savages beneath skies of endless night, the shirkers will be justly condemned and enslaved, and House Azrinae, with its servant House Vonnarc, will be the unquestioned rulers of both the Darklands below and the new Darklands above! Then, those who puled and whined over the deaths of their worthless sons and slaves will be as the pale elves.
The information obtained by Nolveniss and his underlings from the construction and then the use of the Armageddon Echo fully justifies the deaths of any and all of our foot soldiers who have fallen in our attempts to hold Celwynvian. How I long to be there with him to witness over and over again the suffering and death of our enemies! However, I know that my part, too, here at the foot of the Thassilonian artifact, has contributed to the great achievement of our race. With the fall of rock today, I know that our test nears its successful culmination. Soon, we will have the absolute proof we have needed: We can recreate Earthfall!!
Sounds good. I would maybe play up the whole "traitor elves" thing, but overall I think its good. I was also thinking about giving the Drow their own calendar. I found myself pressed for time so I only mentioned it in passing to my players. You know, instead of having the months named after gods use the twelve major Drow demon princes, and have the first Earthfall be year 0. Just a thought.
Valcrist, check out the spoiler in this post for some of the concerns. Even in my game, with Vonnarc set up as a (supposed) ally of Azrinae, I've had a hard time keeping the PCs from going AWOL from Vonnarc to try to break into the empty Azrinae complex, sure that there's valuable information in there somewhere.
If they take Depora
is it to early to give them this also?
There are those in Zirnakaynin, unimaginable as it may seem, who are unwilling to send their sons to serve our race in its glorious quest. When our work is complete and our enemies crushed to earth or reduced to frozen savages beneath skies of endless night, the shirkers will be justly condemned and enslaved, and House Azrinae, with its servant House Vonnarc, will be the unquestioned rulers of both the Darklands below and the new Darklands above! Then, those who puled and whined over the deaths of their worthless sons and slaves will be as the pale elves.
The information obtained by Nolveniss and his underlings from the construction and then the use of the Armageddon Echo fully justifies the deaths of any and all of our foot soldiers who have fallen in our attempts to hold Celwynvian. How I long to be there with him to witness over and over again the suffering and death of our enemies! However, I know that my part, too, here at the foot of the Thassilonian artifact, has contributed to the great achievement of our race. With the fall of rock today, I know that our test nears its successful culmination. Soon, we will have the absolute proof we have needed: We can recreate Earthfall!!
I would think that information would be fine earlier, as long as your PCs still have motivation to go to Devil's Elbow. (Mine had to go for the money, as I burned down the Goblin to get them out of town.) I just saved the big drow reveal to the end of book 2, as I found Depora's unmasking followed up by the meteorite strike created an uncomfortable double-climax. I thought the existence of the drow deserved its own Big Moment at the end of book 2. (The PCs only saw Depora from a distance in silhouette against a darkening sky so couldn't determine her race or skin color.)
Our regroup was replused at the idea of wearing dead elf skins to appear as drow.
As such the infiltrated using disguise, illusion and bribery etc.
The pretended to be other races of the underdark, Dark stalker ( and dwarf as a Dark Creeper) and some other stuff, and as such we lost out on the whole "becomming slaves and our disguises being found out"
we still managed to sneak into mistress vonnarcs chambers, where we were faced with the devourers and the mad mage her self.
Through some kind of mad blunder (the monk got the wizard in a choke hold) we actually won that battle (which should have been statistically impossible) and ended up killing vonnarc.
We escaped the darklands with a hoarde of retribution on our tails.
To us that was the BBEG, the last module was ho hum, boring and allevrah was anti climactic.
If it werent for stopping the sky from falling, i dont think we would have been even motivated to bother.
Our regroup was replused at the idea of wearing dead elf skins to appear as drow.
As such the infiltrated using disguise, illusion and bribery etc.
The pretended to be other races of the underdark, Dark stalker ( and dwarf as a Dark Creeper) and some other stuff, and as such we lost out on the whole "becomming slaves and our disguises being found out"we still managed to sneak into mistress vonnarcs chambers, where we were faced with the devourers and the mad mage her self.
Through some kind of mad blunder (the monk got the wizard in a choke hold) we actually won that battle (which should have been statistically impossible) and ended up killing vonnarc.
We escaped the darklands with a hoarde of retribution on our tails.
To us that was the BBEG, the last module was ho hum, boring and allevrah was anti climactic.
If it werent for stopping the sky from falling, i dont think we would have been even motivated to bother.
You guys just dont seem to have alot of luck with APs this is the second thread I have seen a comment about not liking the AP today, I know you guys rotate DMs how often do you play? Maybe by rotating DMs you guys are losing a part of the feel of the AP being a long arching story
And there is no matter how good they roll how bad you roll 11th or 12th level PCs should have no Chance against an 18th level wizard and the Devowerers
I think she was less than a move action from us.
Monk had init.
I think ALOT of what had to do with it, was she was a 3.5 wizard and we were all 13th level Beta Pathfinder characters.
AS far as the AP went we liked this one with the exception of the wearing dead skins part which just seemed like a spell made up for the purposes of the plot, and the end module was pretty much anti climactic.
during this module we played.... oh twice a week in 4 hour sessions.
We don't play as much as we used to, cant get together as often.
There was alot of side adventuring in this one too, often the beaten path and what not.
As far as wizards go, we don't seem to have the "GREAT AND POWERFUL OZ" problem alot of gamers do where wizards rule the battle field.
this one wasnt set up much in her favor,as I don't think the NPC was expecting a fight, she didn't have spells active that she should have (or would have expecting a fight) and she wasnt buffed, nor were the devourers like they could have been.
Group consisted of a beta fighter (sword and board optimized, and they had better AC back then, this guy had 42 AC which was as much as an Adult Red Dragon), a monk that liked to strangle people (spiked chain and walking on ceilings alot), an eldritch knight that was an archer, a rogue with one level of shadow dancer and a cleric of calistria.
So yea 5 13th level characters beat that encounter. (i think a few of them were 12th)
AS far as tactics go, our gaming group is really good at controlling movement, moving alot, combat manuvers and crushing spell casters.
So we can usually toast encounters over a few CRS than what we should.
We have notoriously bad saving throw luck, however, fireballs and petrification as not our friend.
We all really liked second darkness, but serpents skull borrows ALOT from it, which is giving alot of deja vu what with secret underground cities, abandonded lost cities, and supposedly long exitinct races hiding in them.
But you cant be as good as second darkness by copying most of the basic plot. (depora and her papers, serpent girl and her papers, smugglers shiv and the devils island of second darkness.... cmon! it's too borrowed!)
I'm guessing your DM wasn't prepared to run a fight with Alicavniss. (I feel his pain; I hate running high-level NPCs with so many abilities because I always end up overlooking something.) The module lists specific spells that she has already cast on herself before the PCs arrive, including a contingency if she gets in trouble. My players haven't gotten there yet, but they're not going to be anywhere near 13th level; they just made 10th.
On a tangent, I'm playing in a Serpent's Skull campaign, and I really don't feel that Smuggler's Shiv is anything like Devil's Elbow. One is large, tropical and inhabited; the other is claustrophobic, dark, and uninhabited; the one is a desert island to be explored, and the other is a horror-movie summer camp you can't get off of while you're being hunted.
I'm guessing your DM wasn't prepared to run a fight with Alicavniss. (I feel his pain; I hate running high-level NPCs with so many abilities because I always end up overlooking something.) The module lists specific spells that she has already cast on herself before the PCs arrive, including a contingency if she gets in trouble. My players haven't gotten there yet, but they're not going to be anywhere near 13th level; they just made 10th.
On a tangent, I'm playing in a Serpent's Skull campaign, and I really don't feel that Smuggler's Shiv is anything like Devil's Elbow. One is large, tropical and inhabited; the other is claustrophobic, dark, and uninhabited; the one is a desert island to be explored, and the other is a horror-movie summer camp you can't get off of while you're being hunted.
chocolate, vanilla, its an island no one goes to with secret information on it, same mechanic.
Well no, i dont think anyone was expecting a fight with vonnarc until the monk started it. (crazy monk)
Maybe he missed the contingency, but the wizard was dead in two rounds.
Ill also mention that the wizard had a really sad spell list, never got a single spell off, so the sad spell list didnt matter, and was 3.5 so he should probably have given her more hit points. I think she only had 40 something hit points. It was a trip bull rush grapple choke and a full attack of arrows and thats all she wrote.
the Cleric and the Fighter didn't exactly have alot of trouble with the Devourers but when the rest of party was done with the mage. that was short work too.
Of course we did take the round about way of getting to her, I dont think we were even 10th level when we went into the darklands, Im pretty sure we were 11th or 12th.
97 HP by the book :)
97 HP by the book :)
Well it seemd like 45 or something....and 97? how can a wizard with d4 have 97 hit points at 18th level???
Ok i just read it. (looked it up)
so she has 97 hp i guess from casting false life, the contingency is useless because if hse has 40 ho, it doesnt kick in, if she has -10 its pointless.
If i remember correctly she lost hit point FAST (it was two years ago) so her HP total was probably just plowed past.
She never got a spell off, I read her combat block and what to do and all that, none of it ever happen because she was DEAD.
thats what happens to wizards when a rogue, a monk and an Eldritch Knight man handle you.
Edit: Oh i do remember her trying to cast and flyaway, both actions triggers ridiculous AoOs from the rogue with the combat reflexes and the ridiculous sneak attack. Not to mention the monk had her grappled with his rope of entanglement (It was a spiked chain that worked exactly like the rope of entanglement actually), so thats likely what happened to the contingency, she just died right past it.
2nd edit: and my wife just reminded me of all the stupid elf bane junk we had picked up in the AP, there was at least 2 elf bane daggers, which she was running around with (the rogue) and the EK had an elf slaying arrow.
Seems like alot of elf killing stuff, but i guess in a city with two factions of warring elves it makes sense.
Irregardless, for us, wizards go down like that ALL the time.
I think your DM added or you guys just purchased the Elf Bane items cause I dont remember any of the adventure having Elf bane items
I think your DM added or you guys just purchased the Elf Bane items cause I dont remember any of the adventure having Elf bane items
nah we dont purchase things too much (scolls potions, occasional switch outs for armor etc.)
I dont have the modules on hand to look, I specifically remember a drow assassin with an elf bane dagger ( i think it was in the echo) and some stuff later on around the time we met with the elf queen.
Its been years i cant recall it all now.
The drow assassin has a +1 rapier. I think your DM was trying to help you out and maybe helped a little more than he bargained for. :)
Also, the PCs are supposed to be 12th level after getting out of Zirnakaynin. Book 5 is written for 12th-level characters.
The drow assassin has a +1 rapier. I think your DM was trying to help you out and maybe helped a little more than he bargained for. :)
Also, the PCs are supposed to be 12th level after getting out of Zirnakaynin. Book 5 is written for 12th-level characters.
yea we got side tracked.... we started a bit ahead of the power curve, because we did the kobold king stuff BEFORE starting second darkness,
Then in the ruined elf city we got side tracked there hunting dragons, and there was TWO of them, we killed razor horn too easy so he had a mate, but we killed that one too.I remember the rogue had two elf bane daggers, and she didnt buy them, we hardly ever do that, usually to get say +3 chain mail instead of some +3 splint mail we found etc etc. We never "upgrade" anything better than what we found. We might be able to buy "elf bane" if we found "human bane" and didnt want it for example.
I remember the gnome barbarian we had in legacy of fire having a "golf bag" full of bane weapons he had bane axes and bane falchions and all sorts of bane weapons too, where there bane weapons in that AP??
I know on our side treks we tend to roll random treasure on stuff (like the dragons) but I doubt we got bane elf twice in the same treasure.
I know we had an elf slaying arrow (we called it the death stick because it would work on 85% on the the enemies as well as the friendlies) and two elf bane daggers.
We also had a magic carpet.(I know we randomly rolled that because we have never ever, had a magic carpet in any of our groups before in the 20 odd years ive been playing, so that was pretty memorable)
Hey Ho Tep I already Converted all of Second Darkness I have a thread on here if you post your email in their ill send you all the files