Invisible Knife Conversion?

[Shenron]

So I do not have the Complete Warrior in which that 5 level prestige class was in.

I am wondering if anyone can convert it for me?

[Kirth Gersen]

I'll have to look it up later, but if it's like I remember, a set of rogue talents should be able to supersede the PrC entirely.

[Shenron]

Ya, if I remember it gained sneak attack dice, all of the Feint Bonus feats, and at 5th level gained something like feat mastery, which let them feint as a free action.

[Kirth Gersen]

Shenron wrote:

Ya, if I remember it gained (1) sneak attack dice, (2) all of the Feint Bonus feats, and (3) at 5th level gained something like feat mastery, which let them feint as a free action.

So, staying straight rogue fulfills (1) nicely. You can take a combat feat as a rogue talent, and Pathfinder gives more feats than 3.5 did, so (2) is neatly covered by straight rogue as well. Then just add a talent (with prerequisites) to handle part (3), and you've got your Inivisible Knife without any need to "prestige out" into it.

[Fatespinner]

I believe you're talking about the "Invisible Blade" prestige class (a minor semantic issue, but want to make sure I've got the right one here).

The class features appear to be:

• Sneak Attack progression (standard rogue handles fine)
  
• An "Uncanny Defense" mechanic similar to the Duelist (adds INT to AC when unarmored)
  
• Lots of feint-bolstering abilities (mostly covered by the Improved/Greater Feint feats, though at level 5 they get the ability to do it as a free action, which would just be sick and wrong with the new Greater Feint mechanics)
  
• The ability to cause bleed on sneak attacks (covered by Bleeding Attack rogue talent)
  
• Ability to take 10 on Bluff for feinting (covered by Skill Mastery advanced rogue talent)
  
• Opportunist ability (covered by advanced rogue talent of the same name)
  
• Some improvements to thrown weapon range (mostly covered by Far Shot, the rest strikes me as a bit overkill)

So really, the only things you can't emulate with the current PF rules is:

1.) The ability to feint as a free action.
2.) The crazy range increases on throwing knives.
3.) The ability to feint during an attack of opportunity.
4.) The Uncanny Defense mechanic, unless you want to pick up some Duelist levels.

On the flip side, Greater Feint now renders an opponent flat-footed against your attacks for a whole round after you feint, so any AoOs you made against that opponent would still be sneak attacks. Greater Feint requires a BAB of +6, though, so your average rogue won't be getting it until level 9+. Of course, your average invisible blade isn't getting Feint Mastery until level 10 anyway, so that's not a huge deal.

Invisible blades also only get 4 + INT mod. skill points per level as opposed to the straight rogue's 8. Of course, the Invisible Blade has a full BAB... I just now noticed that... yeah, that PrC might actually be kind of broken. Feint as a free action, full BAB, full sneak attack progression, and 4 + skills? Insane.

[Shenron]

Think it would be worth converting? I think so, how problematic do you think it would be?

[kyrt-ryder]

Fatespinner wrote:

Feint as a free action, full BAB, full sneak attack progression, and 4 + skills? Insane.

Since when?

[Fatespinner]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

Fatespinner wrote:

Feint as a free action, full BAB, full sneak attack progression, and 4 + skills? Insane.

Since when?

Full BAB and full Sneak Attack Progression should never be allowed to combine. The 4 + INT skills is just making it worse and the free-action feint takes it into "Hell no" territory, at least for me.

[kyrt-ryder]

Fatespinner wrote:

kyrt-ryder wrote:

Fatespinner wrote:

Feint as a free action, full BAB, full sneak attack progression, and 4 + skills? Insane.

Since when?

Full BAB and full Sneak Attack Progression should never be allowed to combine. The 4 + INT skills is just making it worse and the free-action feint takes it into "Hell no" territory, at least for me.

Rokugan Ninja:

BAB: Fighter
Good Save: Will
Skills: 4/level
Sneak attack progression: every odd level
Bonus feats: 4ish fairly specific bonus feats throughout 20 levels.
Special Abilities: Gains bonus to stealth at 3-5ish level, Add con bonus x5 to movement speed at 8th level, and a couple other minor things.
Weapon Proficiencies: Rogue/Monkish with a ninja slant.

[posternutbag]

The most powerful benefit of this PrC was the 5th level class feature, Uncanny Feint, which allowed you to feint as a free action. This was actually an awesome reason to take the PrC, but the developers nerfed it in the errata, ruling that you could only use it once per round (making it, for all intents and purposes, a swift action). Otherwise, since you have essentially an unlimited number of free actions, you could just keep feinting until you succeeded. As originally written, an Invisible Blade could have sneak attack every round.

This is actually an interesting class, it was originally meant to be 10 level PrC with both melee and ranged dagger attacks (hence the requirement of Point Blank Shot and Far Shot), but when CW was released, it was cut down to a 5 level class and focused on melee. The author of the PrC has put his original 10 level PrC on the web.

[Shenron]

As anyone done a complete conversion of this?

[Remco Sommeling]

I think you should play with class features rather than a PRC, I do not think 5 level PRC classes fit within Paizo's policy for handling PRC, the minor deviation from a class path for 5 levels is better served with alternate class features or multi-classing.

If I had to write something up..

D10 HD
Good BAB
skils: 4 + int mod

sense motive, bluff, acrobatics, perception, stealth, climb, escape artist, sleight of hands.

requirements : Quick Draw, Weapon Focus (dagger, kukri, punch dagger), Improved initiative, combat expertise

Bluff 5 ranks, Sense Motive 3 ranks

lvl 1 BAB +1 F+0 R+1 W+0 Canny Defense, improved Feint
lvl 2 BAB +2 F+1 R+1 W+1 Sneak Attack +1d6, improved reaction +2
lvl 3 BAB +3 F+1 R+2 W+1 Uncanny Dodge, Bleed
lvl 4 BAB +4 F+1 R+2 W+1 Sneak Attack +2d6, Feint Mastery
lvl 5 BAB +5 F+2 R+3 W+2 Uncanny Feint (swift), improved reaction +4

Canny Defense (Ex): When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per Invisible Blade class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If an Invisible Blade is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.

Improved Feint : as the feat

Bleed : as the rogue talent

Feint mastery : take 10 in combat for feinting

Improved reaction : + 2 on initiative checks

Sneak attack : only works with dagger, kukri or punching dagger in which the Invisible Blade has weapon focus

It is a quick write up, feel free to adjust or comment.

Ok, made it with a lvl 5 rogue in mind, focused on entering this PRc, it's SA keeps progressing, improved uncanny dodge is gained at the usual level, though a fighter / rogue or swash buckler archetype is as likely or more likely to enter.

Specifically did not add improved uncanny dodge to force some tough choices about pre-prc classes.

I dropped the focus on ranged combat, since the prc didnt seem to fit for that theme exactly though it is certainly possible, I emphasized speedy reactions more, since it seemed fitting.

[Remco Sommeling]

slightly more detailed version, I rushed a bit with the first draw.
On first glance it is a bit more powerful than a rogue, but it loses out on many skill points and the HD in practice will not matter much since it cant be a favored class. The PRC uses some suboptimal feats and skills, and not the best weapon to benefit fully, it also needs a good intelligence to benefit from the AC gain. Also Sneak Attack upgrades are placed on levels to favor a less optimized BAB for favor of keeping full Sneak Attack potential. I think it is a good PRC for a rogue to give it a bit more staying power in combat, or a lightly armored fighter getting into dagger fighting.

D10 HD
Good BAB

The invisible Blade does not gain any armor or weapon proficiencies

skils: 4 + int mod

sense motive, bluff, acrobatics, perception, stealth, climb, escape artist, sleight of hands.

requirements : Quick Draw, Weapon Focus (dagger, kukri, punch dagger), Improved initiative, combat expertise

Bluff 5 ranks, Sense Motive 3 ranks, sleight of hand 3 ranks

lvl 1 BAB +1 F+0 R+1 W+0 Canny Defense, improved Feint
lvl 2 BAB +2 F+1 R+1 W+1 Sneak Attack +1d6, improved reaction +2
lvl 3 BAB +3 F+1 R+2 W+1 Uncanny Dodge, Bleeding attack
lvl 4 BAB +4 F+1 R+2 W+1 Sneak Attack +2d6, Feint Mastery
lvl 5 BAB +5 F+2 R+3 W+2 Uncanny Feint (swift), improved reaction +4

Canny Defense (Ex): When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per Invisible Blade class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If an Invisible Blade is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.

Improved Feint : as a bonus feat

Bleeding Attack : as the rogue talent

Feint mastery : The Invisible Blade can take 10 on bluff checks in combat when feinting

Uncanny Dodge : as the barbarian class ability

Improved reaction : + 2 on initiative checks at 2nd level, increases to +4 at 5th level

Sneak attack : t0he sneak attack dice stacks with the sneak attack from other classes, but only if using a dagger, kukri or punching dagger in which the Invisible Blade has weapon focus.

[ThatEvilGuy]

Shenron wrote:

So I do not have the Complete Warrior in which that 5 level prestige class was in.

I am wondering if anyone can convert it for me?

Shameless plug.