This is just an idea for a few homebrew combat rules, not a suggestion to change the game as written. The intention is to add new combat options that use iterative attacks as the primary resource/currency. Essentially, finding more things to do with them.
Here are some proposals, untested, to get started. All are variations of the Full Attack action that trade out the second, third, and/or fourth attacks for other tactical goodies. Usually, the attacks with the lowest bonus would be the ones that are sacrificed, but you could choose any iterative attack if you needed to (for example) move between attacks.
At this stage, they only apply for iterative attacks derived directly from base attack bonus and not for extra attacks gained due to natural weapons or multi-weapon fighting. The flavour reason being that they arise from combat training with weapons, just as iterative attacks themselves do. The mechanical reason being that Two-weapon warriors, elderly dragons, etc could otherwise get sick bonuses and still make a tremendous number of attacks.
What would be the effect of these on PF and other d20 games? If they turn out to be poorly implemented, is there a better way that we could use iterative attacks to give more tactical options? Or is the whole idea structurally unsound? If so, why?
Elusive Attack
A character with a base attack bonus of +6 or higher can lose one iterative attack in order to gain a +2 bonus to his AC and CMD until the start of his next turn. A character with a base attack bonus of +11 can lose two attacks to gain a +4 bonus, and a character with a base attack bonus of +16 can lose three attacks to gain a +6 bonus.
Decisive Attack
A character with a base attack bonus of +6 or higher can lose one iterative attack in order to add half of his base attack bonus to damage rolls until the end of his turn. A character with a base attack bonus of +11 or higher can lose two iterative attacks in order to add his full base attack bonus, and a character with a base attack bonus of +16 or higher can lose three iterative attacks in order to add 1 1/2 times his base attack bonus to damage.
Mobile Attack
A character with a base attack bonus of +11 or higher can lose one iterative attack in order to move up to half his speed. A character with a base attack bonus of +16 or higher can lose two iterative attacks in order to move a distance up to his speed.
Thoughts?
I like the concept of more things to do with multiple attacks, and warriors in general. Although, there are feats like cleave and vital strike that does something similar (can move and do good damage/ make multiple attacks, etc).
Are these feats, or something anyone can do?
If you haven't seen the mobile fighter variant, it allows fighters to move and attack at the same time
pfsrd wrote: Rapid Attack (Ex)
At 11th level, a mobile fighter can combine a full-attack action with a single move. He must forgo the attack at his highest bonus but may take the remaining attacks at any point during his movement. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.
This ability replaces Armor Training 3.
Thanks for the reply, Kierato.
They're not feats, they are combat options that anybody can do.
We're aware of the mobile fighter, but thanks for the heads up anyway :) This is more of a system-wide house rule proposal* that addresses a perceived disparity between casters and warriors in the action economy, not something that is fighter-class-specific.
The same thinking also applies for Vital Strike/Cleave/etc. Structurally, we feel you shouldn't need a specific feat in the game just to move and deal decent damage (YMMV). Since these aren't feats, they free-up (or don't consume) feat slots for other nifty goodies - a good thing given that there are so many cool feats in PF.
I am interested in your thoughts on ways that the rules might unbalance the game, or interactions I haven't considered/foreseen.
Cheers,
Mon.
* For our group and anyone else who likes it
Do you lose your highest attacks, lowest attacks, or whatever attacks you choose to gain these benefits.
Does the movement provided by mobile attack have to be used all at once or can it be split up.
Mon wrote: The same thinking also applies for Vital Strike/Cleave/etc. Structurally, we feel you shouldn't need a specific feat in the game just to move and deal decent damage (YMMV). Since these aren't feats, they free-up (or don't consume) feat slots for other nifty goodies - a good thing given that there are so many cool feats in PF. This comment gives me the impression that you are under-valuing these feats, even if that is not your intent. After all, the whole point of them is so that warrior types can move and still contribute meaningfully in combat.
Thanks for your continued feedback, Kierato.
Kierato wrote: Do you lose your highest attacks, lowest attacks, or whatever attacks you choose to gain these benefits. As I said in the OP, you can choose which to lose but it assumes you will drop the lowest one.
Kierato wrote:
Does the movement provided by mobile attack have to be used all at once or can it be split up.
This is exactly the kind of feedback I wanted... helping me to nail down stuff I missed! Thanks :)
In my head, it works like this: use it when you take it, and any left over is lost. E.g. With three attacks and 30ft speed you could:
(1) Make an attack, move up to 15ft, attack again
(2) move up to 15ft, and attack twice
(3) attack twice and move up to 15ft
(4) full attack three times
(5) take a move action (30ft) and a standard action (one attack)
Kierato wrote:
Mon wrote: The same thinking also applies for Vital Strike/Cleave/etc. Structurally, we feel you shouldn't need a specific feat in the game just to move and deal decent damage (YMMV). Since these aren't feats, they free-up (or don't consume) feat slots for other nifty goodies - a good thing given that there are so many cool feats in PF. This comment gives me the impression that you are under-valuing these feats, even if that is not your intent. After all, the whole point of them is so that warrior types can move and still contribute meaningfully in combat.
I am not sure what you mean by undervalue... this isn't at all about how effective/valuable those feats are. We've used them in play, we know how they work out. Nor does it disregard the fact that those feats do indeed let you move and contribute meaningfully (that's a given).
It is the idealistic view that warriors should be able to move and contribute meaningfully without burning feats to do so, and with the feats they don't spend getting an ability that we feel should be built-in they can buy a few more of the 100s of other cool PF feats. Or they can spend feats and become better at moving-and-contributing than warriors who choose not to focus on that as part of their concept.
To be honest, moving and attacking is only a small part of the idea... a starting-point "utility" effect alongside "defensive" (Elsusive Attack) and "offensive" (Decisive Attack) options to get creative juices flowing. The main thing is giving warriors more stuff to do within the action economy. Other effects would be more than welcome, if you have any ideas! (In fact, that's kind of what I am fishing for with the thread).
Cheers,
Mon.
Mon wrote: Kierato wrote:
Do you lose your highest attacks, lowest attacks, or whatever attacks you choose to gain these benefits.
As I said in the OP, you can choose which to lose but it assumes you will drop the lowest one.
sorry, missed that.
The Duelist gains the ability to give up one attack to use it to latter parry an attack against them or an adjacent ally, and at higher levels can counter attack with the same ability. Just a thought.
I'm tempted to say let them move their full speed with mobile attack since many warriors can only move 30 ft or less. 10-15 ft. won't get you very far.
I edited the above response for clarity. Sorry if you already read the older one.
Kierato wrote: The Duelist gains the ability to give up one attack to use it to latter parry an attack against them or an adjacent ally, and at higher levels can counter attack with the same ability. Just a thought.
I'm tempted to say let them move their full speed with mobile attack since many warriors can only move 30 ft or less. 10-15 ft. won't get you very far.
Good ideas both. Do you think the Duelist parry would be a better way to model the "defensive" tactical option? It already has in-game precedent.
I'll think about the movement thing a bit more.
Cheers,
Mon.
On the topic of the defensive option, does the AC bonus apply to touch attacks and/or flat footed AC?
Kierato wrote: On the topic of the defensive option, does the AC bonus apply to touch attacks and/or flat footed AC? Like a dodge bonus - so it applies to touch attacks but is lost when you lose your Dex bonus to AC.
The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of trading attacks for cool things that aren't just bigger numbers - i.e. your suggestion about the duelist's parry/counter-attack ability.
RE: Movement, I think half speed works out OK. Moving 15ft is three times further than just a 5ft-step. Add a few speed boosts (haste, monk levels, a couple of Fleet feats) and you could be covering 20-30ft with that half move. Also, at +16 BAB you can move full speed and still attack twice.
What about getting some combat manoeuvres or conditions in on the action? Any ideas how those sorts of things might be traded in for iterative attacks?
Also, any thoughts about when/how this sort of thing might get a bit wonky or abusable?
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