War Goblins are the brutes of the Goblin race. Bred by tribal Shamans for generations, tortured with the magics of goblin alchemists, and honed by servitude under goblinoid generals, they have become the shock troops of the Goblin Hordes.
+2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Cha: War Goblins have been bred for their Strength, and Speed but they are no more pleasant than any other Goblin
Small: +1 Size bonus to AC/+1 Size bonus to attack rolls/+4 Size bonus on Stealth Checks
Fast: War Goblins, like other Goblins, are fast for their size, and have a base speed of 30 feet
Darkvision: 60 feet
Size Doesn't Matter: Goblins are scrappers - they do not suffer the -1 penalty to CMB and CMD. They focus on wielding too large weapons, with most War Goblin's training in two such weapons - the War Goblin can use two weapons in medium size without penalty.
Skilled: +4 racial Bonus on Ride and Intimidate checks
Hated: War Goblins are hated - they suffer a -4 penalty to diplomacy and bluff checks when dealing with non goblins.
Weapons Training: War Goblins are automatically proficient with Dogslicers and Horsechoppers
Let Him Do It: Goblins are lazy when they aren't causing havoc. Their Str is treated as 4 points lower for carrying capacity.
Hyperactive: War Goblins are even more manic and energetic than their ancestral cousins. War Goblins may use each of the following effects once per day.
Burst of Speed: The War Goblin increases his base speed by an additional 10 feet for a number of rounds equal to his Dex modifier (minimum 1 round). When this effect is over the War Goblin is fatigued.
Pythons: The War Goblin displays his stunning strength. For a number of rounds equal to his Con modifier, he can use his Str score to modify Intimidate checks, and he does not suffer the normal -4 penalty for being small.
War Goblins are the brutes of the Goblin race. Bred by tribal Shamans for generations, tortured with the magics of goblin alchemists, and honed by servitude under goblinoid generals, they have become the shock troops of the Goblin Hordes.
+2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Cha: War Goblins have been bred for their Strength, and Speed but they are no more pleasant than any other Goblin
I would have this be one mental stat and one positive physical stat, not two physical ones.
Hyperactive: War Goblins are even more manic and energetic than their ancestral cousins. War Goblins may use each of the following effects once per day.Burst of Speed: The War Goblin increases his base speed by an additional 10 feet for a number of rounds equal to his Dex modifier (minimum 1 round). When this effect is over the War Goblin is fatigued.
Pythons: The War Goblin displays his stunning strength. For a number of rounds equal to his Con modifier, he can use his Str score to modify Intimidate checks, and he does not suffer the normal -4 penalty for being small.
The race has too much going for it. It has no weaknesses of being small, but still has the advantages that other small creatures get. I would drop burst of speed and hyperactive.
The biggest issue with small races are the penalties to strength, and the base weapon damage. Once you get rid of those, and the slow speed you should be good to go. Giving them a penalty to social skills won't matter if the player keeps his mouth shut. If you are going to keep the two physical stats then I could give another mental penalty. and fluff them out as being shock troops to explain their mental issues.
This is unquestionably the best race for combat characters bar none, comparing with core. No race should be this good.
Burst of Speed and Pythons fall under the Hyperactive ability and are thus usable once per day. I do not know how long the War Goblin is fatigued for after using Burst of Speed. If the author updates this, I'll let you know.
Burst of Speed and Pythons fall under the Hyperactive ability and are thus usable once per day. I do not know how long the War Goblin is fatigued for after using Burst of Speed. If the author updates this, I'll let you know.
Where did you find this at?
It's a work in progress for a PC.
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Don't give them a +2 to strength. They shouldn't be stronger than dwarves, that's just silly. Awww, heck. I'll just tell you what I think they oughta get. What do you folks think of this?
+2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, -2 Intelligence: War Goblins are bred for war, with great reflexes, better intuition, and stronger muscles than other goblins. They also inherit the goblin aptitude for scholarship.
Small: +1 Size bonus to AC/+1 Size bonus to attack rolls/+4 Size bonus on Stealth Checks
Fast: War Goblins, like other Goblins, are fast for their size, and have a base speed of 30 feet.
Darkvision: 60 feet
Size Doesn't Matter: Goblins are scrappers - they do not suffer the -1 penalty to CMB and CMD.
Skilled: +2 racial Bonus on Ride and Intimidate checks.
Weapons Training: War Goblins are automatically proficient with Dogslicers and Horsechoppers.
So how much would you like us to tinker with this to make it balanced? You might consider the following:
+2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Int bred for war this goblinoid is fast and cunning but lacks the critical thinking skills present in their more skittish cousins (i chose not to give them a cha penalty because you sound like you may want them to be good at intimidation and maybe even leaders of goblin war parties)
Small
Fast: Like goblins, this variant is also fast and moves 30 ft (6 squares)
Darkvision: 60 ft
Grip of the bugbear: These goblins poses strong hands and are conditioned at an early age to utilize the weapons of their larger enemies so as to use their weapons against them on the battlefield. These goblins are considered medium for the purposes of wielding weapons. This means that if they attempt to use small weapons they will receive the normal -2 that a medium character would receive.
Intimidating: +2 to their intimidate.
Riders of Blood: +2 ride
Tools of the trade: proficient in dogslicers and horsechoppers
From the shadows: sneak attack +d6 precision damage to all attacks that would normally be eligible for sneak attack.
Anyways, you can swap out the from the shadows with something else but i thought it might be a nice touch to maintain the sneaky nature that goblins have.
Haha lyrax and I are on the same page it seems.... lol.
So how much would you like us to tinker with this to make it balanced? You might consider the following:
+2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Int bred for war this goblinoid is fast and cunning but lacks the critical thinking skills present in their more skittish cousins (i chose not to give them a cha penalty because you sound like you may want them to be good at intimidation and maybe even leaders of goblin war parties)
Small
Fast: Like goblins, this variant is also fast and moves 30 ft (6 squares)
Darkvision: 60 ft
Grip of the bugbear: These goblins poses strong hands and are conditioned at an early age to utilize the weapons of their larger enemies so as to use their weapons against them on the battlefield. These goblins are considered medium for the purposes of wielding weapons. This means that if they attempt to use small weapons they will receive the normal -2 that a medium character would receive.
Intimidating: +2 to their intimidate.
Riders of Blood: +2 ride
Tools of the trade: proficient in dogslicers and horsechoppers
From the shadows: sneak attack +d6 precision damage to all attacks that would normally be eligible for sneak attack.
Anyways, you can swap out the from the shadows with something else but i thought it might be a nice touch to maintain the sneaky nature that goblins have.
A combination of your idea, and Lyrax's seems pretty good. Which exact combination I don't know yet.
Hated: War Goblins are hated - they suffer a -4 penalty to diplomacy and bluff checks when dealing with non goblins.
I like the idea behind this, but I agree that it can be easily avoided. What if it was something a bit more severe such as the starting attitude of any non-goblinoid is automatically one step lower if the war goblin is present during the diplomacy check? That way they are forced to keep a distance, off setting their melee prowess by not being close to whoever might be vulnerable to a melee ambush during parley.
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While I hate drive-by threadcraps, I'm hypocrite enough to offer one.
Have you considered making a 'war goblin' just use Hobgoblin stats, and say that attempts to breed a 'war goblin' resulted in the Hobgoblin race, and that attempts to buff up a normal goblin through magical / alchemical / etc. experimentation usually ends up with either a dead goblin, a horribly mutated aberration, or, stunning success, a hobgoblin with some hideous stretch marks and a fouler-than-normal disposition from the sudden torturous growth spurts?
Even the reduced version seems too much like it's a small creature that ignores the drawbacks of being Small (using medium weapons, moving at medium-creature speeds, etc.). Two or more racial features designed to get around the drawbacks of being size Small makes me question whether it really should be size Small at all...
Why not just make it Medium and describe it as squat, like a dwarf, or perhaps spindly-framed, and able to count as a Small creature for squeezing purposes?
Why not just make it Medium and describe it as squat, like a dwarf, or perhaps spindly-framed, and able to count as a Small creature for squeezing purposes?
I agree with this idea for your version of the Goblin. I've also been playing with the idea of a more PC friendly Goblin race, but it actually goes in the completely opposite direction from yours and it's nothing very spectacular (though PC races really shouldn't be). Here's what I have come up with:
Goblin (Civilized) Racial Traits
+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -2 Strength: Though not as fast as their savage counterparts, they are quite agile. Their bodies are still weak, but they know how to present themselves better and are very intelligent in comparison.
Small: Goblins are Small creatures and gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a -1 penalty to their CMB and CMD, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.
Fast: Goblins are fast for their size, and have a base speed of 30 feet.
Darkvision: Goblins can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Savage Heritage: Goblins receive a +2 racial bonus on Ride and Stealth skill checks.
Blend In: Goblins receive a +2 racial bonus on Disguise skill checks.
Skilled: Goblins gain an additional skill rank at first level and one additional rank whenever they gain a level.
Weapon Familiarity: Goblins treat any weapon with the word "goblin" in its name as a martial weapon.
Languages: Goblins begin play speaking Common and Goblin. Goblins with high Intelligence scores can choose any of these bonus languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Gnoll, Gnome, Halfling, Orc. Unlike most Goblins, this variety is not illiterate.
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Goblin (Civilized) Racial Traits
With the racial Int bonus, these feel like the 'tinker' goblins of settings like Warcraft, which is cool. They'd be the crafters of the humanoid world, and the source of the metal weaponry and armor that dimmer or less motivated races like orcs and gnolls would carry.
It is without precedent to give a PC race in pathfinder two bonuses to physical stats and still come out with an overall bonus (orcs get +6 to physical stats and -6 to mental stats).
The only penalties your version has for being small are the reduced carrying capacity, and -1 to CMB and CMD.
Why are these goblins more intimidating than orcs (and every other PC race)?
That is untrue - the hobgoblin gets an overall bonus of +4, (+2 dex, +2 con) and no penalties to any stat physical or mental
But Hobgoblin is not a PC race. It's a monster. And since it is a 1/2 base CR instead of a 1/3 like Goblin and Orc, that would constitute a +1 level adjustment if it was used as a PC race.
Not sure about the level adjustment since I haven't seen anything about it in pathfinder. The hobgoblin is in the PRD (and probably the bestiary) with a section for use as PCs, and looking at them now, they seem a bit more balanced than this goblin race.
+2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution: Hobgoblins are fast and hearty.
Darkvision: Hobgoblins can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Sneaky: Hobgoblins gain a +4 racial bonus on Stealth checks.
... and no other abilities.
Ellie: I did assume orcs had the same bonus to intimidate as half-orcs, and I was wrong about the orc stats (+4 physical, -6 mental). Since, you're using this race specifically for a mounted cavalier. The 20 speed is an insignificant penalty.
A wargoblin can be more menacing with a +2 to intimidate. The +4 intimidate is unwarranted for a small creature, especially for a goblin, and especially since you ignore the penalty to intimidate for being small
Why not just make it Medium and describe it as squat, like a dwarf, or perhaps spindly-framed, and able to count as a Small creature for squeezing purposes?I agree with this idea for your version of the Goblin. I've also been playing with the idea of a more PC friendly Goblin race, but it actually goes in the completely opposite direction from yours and it's nothing very spectacular (though PC races really shouldn't be). Here's what I have come up with:
Goblin (Civilized) Racial Traits
+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -2 Strength: Though not as fast as their savage counterparts, they are quite agile. Their bodies are still weak, but they know how to present themselves better and are very intelligent in comparison.
Small: Goblins are Small creatures and gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a -1 penalty to their CMB and CMD, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.
Fast: Goblins are fast for their size, and have a base speed of 30 feet.
Darkvision: Goblins can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Savage Heritage: Goblins receive a +2 racial bonus on Ride and Stealth skill checks.
Blend In: Goblins receive a +2 racial bonus on Disguise skill checks.
Skilled: Goblins gain an additional skill rank at first level and one additional rank whenever they gain a level.
Weapon Familiarity: Goblins treat any weapon with the word "goblin" in its name as a martial weapon.
Languages: Goblins begin play speaking Common and Goblin. Goblins with high Intelligence scores can choose any of these bonus languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Gnoll, Gnome, Halfling, Orc. Unlike most Goblins, this variety is not illiterate.
I like it. The only thing i would add is =
Weakness: Light Sensitivity (see page 301 Bestiary)
This would help balance out that fact that a small race has fast movement speed 30.
Ellie: This race was built specifically for your order of the cockatrice cavalier.
omg... you're right - I did work to make the goblin a playable race and what do you know - it did end up working for the class I intend to play. Strangely enough I don't usually create races without the intention to play them - I think that's probably a sin most of us are guilty of.
<-- This guy is totally not guilty of that crap.
If you make a race, you probably shouldn't be the one playing it, if only because it looks really bad.Also, this race is a way too good as written in the OP. Alexander K. is exactly right - no small race should have a str bonus.
As far aas using this for the cockatrice cav, unless yur the face-man/goblin, there are no drawbacks to using this overpowered race.
1-heavy armor slows you down? nope, yur on a wolf
2-you can't carry as much? nope, yur on a wolf
3-can't take your mount in there? yur small, and yur wolf is medium. If it can't fit the rest of yur party is probably screwed too
4-people don't like you? someone else in the party can do the talking
5-yur small so you do less damage? nope, you get two weapons at medium size. Let me guess... lance and longsword? Well, lance and something.
Is the GM letting your burst of speed affect your mount's speed?
cockatrices get boni to hit people they intimidate at second level, right? So your +4 intimidate all the time negates your size penalty, and on top of that you get to add your str bonus (which is at +2!) and an additional +4 to intimidate once per day... that's retarded good.
It seems this race is the perfect cavalier choice and perfect for cockatrice. Too perfect <cue sinister music!>
Are all the party's races customized? Are you the GM's girlfriend?
Regardless that doesn't mean that I can't remain objective.
If you designed the race to play the class, you've got to be the LEAST objective person here.
10 ft movement is a large power loss and that can be represented by the amount of feats it requires to obtain if it isn't a racial ability.
Unless it's not a drawback at all...
Simply because one class would suffer less than others in specific circumstances does not take away from the fact that it is a significant ability.
Yeah it does.
"My custom race built to be a wizard gets -4 to all cha skills and +4 to all caster levels. That's fair, even though wizards don't generally use cha skills..... <buzzer sound!>"
There will be times that I won't be mounted and as a cavalier in heavy armor my movement is going to be significantly impaired on top of the fact that I will be without my mounted abilities.
The point of playing a small mounted character is that you don't have to be unmounted unless your mount dies. At that point yur probably grateful yur in heavy armor, cause the sh*t is deeeeep.
Furthermore, kadance, I would appreciate it if you could try to remain at least superficially objective as you discuss the drawbacks and benefits of this race.
Kettle - Pot, watch what you call me...
If you really want to play a goblin on a wolf (or boar, or pony), did you consider playing a normal goblin?
If you really want to play a goblin on a wolf (or boar, or pony), did you consider playing a normal goblin?
She did get a lance, but she rides an elephant by way of a custom feat the GM designed, not a wolf.
Other benefits include:A) Three additional abilities for a customized cavalier class
B) Starting at 1st level when the rest of the party started at 0th/apprentice level.
C) Starting with an extra weapon. The party started as slaves, everyone else got one weapon.
But, none of that matters. I've stepped out of the game so none of this is my concern.
Mods, please feel free to lock/trash/whatever this thread.
I like it. The only thing i would add is =
Weakness: Light Sensitivity (see page 301 Bestiary)
This would help balance out that fact that a small race has fast movement speed 30.
Well, that would sort of go against what I'm going for with the race. They're pretty much the exact same Goblins as what's in the Bestiary, except they've learned to live with other people in a civilized manner. Adding Light Sensitivity when they didn't have it originally doesn't make sense to me since they live mostly in cities now and not in dark caves. I'd get rid of Skilled or even get rid of Fast before I'd think of adding that. But based off of this guide, what I came up with is well balanced. But I would admit that there are some flaws with the guidelines when involving Small characters. I don't know, but that definitely isn't a final draft set in stone yet. Thanks for the comment. Hope I didn't come off like an ass with my counterargument. I'm not trying to be stubborn or anything.
So, by that guide the OP race is between 27 and 38 points versus normal races being 10.
Base stats
+2 Str
+2 [some mental stat]
-2 Cha
====================
either
8 pts: +2 Dex
4 pts: negate -2 [some mental stat]
or
4 pts: switch a racial stat [+2 mental] to the other category [physical]
====================
0 pts: small size
4 pts: existing feat (+5' speed)
4 pts: existing feat (+5' speed)
2 pts: Darkvision: 60 feet
2 pts: +1 CMB, +1 CMD (this seems like 1/2 a feat or more)
4 pts: wield two weapons of larger size than normal with no penalties
2 pts: +2 racial Bonus on two skills
2 pts: +2 racial bonus on the same two skills (maybe 3 or 4 pts)
1 pts: free weapon proficiencies (maybe 2 pts)
2 pts: Burst of Speed (+10 untyped speed 1/day) (guessing at the points)
2 pts: Pythons (Str Mod + 4 to intimidate once per day) (guessing at the points)
-1 pt: Very situational penalty (-4 diplomacy and bluff with non-goblins)
-1 pt: Very situational penalty (-4 Str for carrying stuff when there's a +2 str bonus)
Well, that would sort of go against what I'm going for with the race. They're pretty much the exact same Goblins as what's in the Bestiary, except they've learned to live with other people in a civilized manner. Adding Light Sensitivity when they didn't have it originally doesn't make sense to me since they live mostly in cities now and not in dark caves. I'd get rid of Skilled or even get rid of Fast before I'd think of adding that. But based off of this guide, what I came up with is well balanced. But I would admit that there are some flaws with the guidelines when involving Small characters. I don't know, but that definitely isn't a final draft set in stone yet. Thanks for the comment. Hope I didn't come off like an ass with my counterargument. I'm not trying to be stubborn or anything.I like it. The only thing i would add is =
Weakness: Light Sensitivity (see page 301 Bestiary)
This would help balance out that fact that a small race has fast movement speed 30.
So light sensitivity, just means =
Dazzled
The creature is unable to see well because of overstimulation of the eyes. A dazzled creature takes a –1 penalty on attack rolls and sight-based Perception checks.
But ya if you would rather get ride of Fasted or Skilled instead, go right ahead.
4 pts: existing feat (+5' speed)
4 pts: existing feat (+5' speed)
Actually, by the guide 30ft speed for a small character doesn't cost anything extra. Having a -10ft to speed for being small is a disability that gives you -4 points to work with. Check the Gnome and regular Goblin examples. This is the main thing that I'm not so sure about with the guide. I guess he's saying that all of the benefits and disabilities of being small vs. medium balance out except for being slow. This becomes a problem when comparing Gnome and Halfling (which he didn't put as a point break down example). Halfling is only about 6 points if you give it the -4 points for being slow instead of 10 points. But as the writer says in the thread, it's not exact; it's just a guide to help for balancing.
So light sensitivity, just means =
Dazzled
The creature is unable to see well because of overstimulation of the eyes. A dazzled creature takes a –1 penalty on attack rolls and sight-based Perception checks.
But ya if you would rather of Fasted or Skilled instead, go right ahead.
Yeah, in building my version of the Goblin I'm more concerned with it making sense for that version of the race. But here's the breakdown per the guide mentioned:
+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -2 Strength: +0
Small: +0
Fast: +0
Darkvision: +2 (Darkvision 60')
Savage Heritage: +2 (+2 racial bonus to two different skills)
Blend In: +1 (+2 racial bonus to a skill)
Skilled: +2 (1 bonus skill point per class level)
Weapon Familiarity: +0
Languages: +0
That only comes out to a 7 point total. If I wanted to I could drop the ride bonus and give it a +1 Dodge AC for an even 10 points.... That actually sounds really awesome to me. Kind of screams Rouge a bit, but I'd image it's something a Goblin who is commonly in cities would have, needing to be wary of his situations and all.
Hey where did you get this point system? Would love to have it.
I linked it earlier in the thread.
Actually, by the guide 30ft speed for a small character doesn't cost anything extra. Having a -10ft to speed for being small is a disability that gives you -4 points to work with. Check the Gnome and regular Goblin examples. This is the main thing that I'm not so sure about with the guide. I guess he's saying that all of the benefits and disabilities of being small vs. medium balance out except for being slow. This becomes a problem when comparing Gnome and Halfling (which he didn't put as a point break down example). Halfling is only about 6 points if you give it the -4 points for being slow instead of 10 points. But as the writer says in the thread, it's not exact; it's just a guide to help for balancing.
Halflings are, in fact, a crap race. They come out to around 5 points and could use some beefing up, ability wise. If you ignore the guide completely and eyeball the races... halflings will still be a crap race in comparison to the others. They need improvement.
Small does balance itself out, in general, because it results in not only a lowered carrying capacity, but also the use of smaller weapons and penalties to grappling. The weapons aspect penalizes martial characters more than magical characters, obviously, and that's where DM common sense has to come into play. If a race is being built around a character, it is a bad race regardless of the resulting point values.
Halflings are, in fact, a crap race. They come out to around 5 points and could use some beefing up, ability wise. If you ignore the guide completely and eyeball the races... halflings will still be a crap race in comparison to the others. They need improvement.
Yeah, I agree. Using the standards you developed, Halfling is definitely underpowered. And even at a glance Gnome just has so much more going for it than Halfling if you're going to play a small character (though it's weird that I've never seen anyone in my groups play Gnome, but many have played Halflings).
Small does balance itself out, in general, because it results in not only a lowered carrying capacity, but also the use of smaller weapons and penalties to grappling. The weapons aspect penalizes martial characters more than magical characters, obviously, and that's where DM common sense has to come into play. If a race is being built around a character, it is a bad race regardless of the resulting point values.
Agreed here, too. I just wasn't sure if it was a conscious decision to work Small that way since it wasn't really discussed in detail and you didn't break down the Halfling.
Anyway, thank you very much for your guide. It's very helpful.