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Not every divine warrior is a paladin, and they certainly aren't all lawful good! The Genius Guide to the Templar introduces a new base class, the templar, who can serve as temple guardian, holy knight, or divine enforcer of the church. The templar draws power from his god and faith, but templars can worship death and madness as easily as law and good.
Come take a look at who else fights with sword and holy symbol! Pick up the templar now!
And here i was worried i wouldnt have something to read today. I was disappointed when the templar didnt turn up in the APG, so this should be fun. Lets have a look...
First off, awesome, I have always felt something needed to be added for the holy warrior that wasnt a cleric, and wasnt puppy murdering evil or mind numbingly good. I expect this to get a fair amount of use at my table.
Now the comments and questions:
1. It might just be me, but I cant sort out what the last sentance of the first paragraph means in context. I smell a copy paste error.
"Although clerics are servants of
their gods and paladins, in different lands they might
be called bannerets, champions, gallants, kirks, or
warders."
2. On page 3 last paragraph, it seems you suddenly go from using Temple Orders to Temple Callings. I cant seem to find a distinction between the two, is it possible that in an earlier version they were written as callings?
3. Acolytes Talent: I dont know that it was wise to include leadership as a potential class feature. It is a pretty contentious feat as it is, and to have it within the body of a class could mean some contention at people's tables. But more of a problem is the removal of the prerequisite. What exactly does leadership do for a level 1 character? All the charisma and positive modifiers in the world still wont give you a cohort (unless there is such a thing as a level -1 character). There should be some explanation as to what this talent gives at low levels, or it should keep the normal leadership prereq in place.
4. Devotion: Is this really neccesary? The whole point of the class is to have a holy warrior with a less stringent code. You go to great lengths to explain that the templar need not walk on egg shells the way the paladin has to in some cases. Given that your own description requires a 'gross violation' of the God's expectations, do players really need a talent and a DC 15 wisdom check to sort that out? Shouldnt a highly religious holy warrior already know what constitutes a gross violation of his or her god's tenants?
5. Mantra's: Since they are their durations measured from the beggining of the recitation (the standard action) or the end? For instance. Lets say A level 2 Templar has Mantra of Ecstasy, on his turn he recites the mantra. When does the bonus end? At the start of his next turn or at the end?
6. Mantra of Leadership: Doesnt this step on the bard's toes a bit? It would seem this is considerably better then inspire competance, since it could presumably be continued endlessly (withe recurring standard actions) and the bonus will be considerably higher since wisdom is a primary stat for the Templar. Granted the bard doesnt need to continue to use standard actions, but for helping the party achieve some skill based task this is WAY better.
7. I have the same problem I had with the godling's nemesis option with the 3rd temple bond option. The bonus is all well and good, but with no obvious way to obvious way to determine an enemy's alignment, its going to lead to alot of confusion at the table as to whether or not the bonus applies.
8. Regarding the master templar ability to grant abilities. Is the 1+wisdom limit a per day or at a time limit? Meaning can you use this ability an unlimited amount of times so long as there are never more then 1+wisdom targets using it at once?
9. What is the range on the darkvision granted by the Beast Sense ability of the animal order?
10. Hmmm Templars with the Charm Order would make rather good investigators for a church. Interesting. I may have to make use of that one.
11. There is a typo on page 8 in the Healing Order Ability:
The amount of fast healing granted by
this ability increases to fast healing 2 and
3rd level, and by an additional 1 every 3
templar levels (6th, 9th, 12th, and so on).
12. I like the liberation ability. Martial characters who can grant themselves freedom of movement become a lot more useful at higher levels.
Over all I really like this product. The variety offered in the orders (due to the variety of domains and gods) is imense and can create a wide variety of characters. My only disappointment is that it is wisdom based instead of charisma based. I like charismatic characters and there are precious few classes that give a mechanical reason to boost charisma. The paladin is ofcourse one of those, and so I was hoping the templar would follow suite. Its certainly not a deal breaker though, and there will likely soon be templars enforcing the will of their gods in my game world.
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And here i was worried i wouldnt have something to read today.
And given the number of people snowed in around Seattle, that was a real risk. Thank the paizo staff for actually getting this up so quickly!
I was disappointed when the templar didnt turn up in the APG
Me too. :)
First off, awesome, I have always felt something needed to be added for the holy warrior that wasnt a cleric, and wasnt puppy murdering evil or mind numbingly good. I expect this to get a fair amount of use at my table.
Cool! That is always my #1 hope – to produce things fellow players can actually use.
Now the comments and questions:
You know we're always looking forward to your feedback!
1. It might just be me, but I cant sort out what the last sentance of the first paragraph means in context. I smell a copy paste error.
This is what I get for going over edited manuscripts while high on egg nog.
"Although clerics are servants of their gods, and paladins are holy warriors devoted to the greater good, neither is the dedicated warrior fighting first and foremost for a specific church or religion. The templar fills this role, and in different lands may be called bannerets, champions, gallants, kirks, or warders."
2. On page 3 last paragraph, it seems you suddenly go from using Temple Orders to Temple Callings. I cant seem to find a distinction between the two, is it possible that in an earlier version they were written as callings?
Yep! There is no distinction, it's a simple mislabeling error.
3. Acolytes Talent: I dont know that it was wise to include leadership as a potential class feature. It is a pretty contentious feat as it is, and to have it within the body of a class could mean some contention at people's tables.
I presume if any GM would forbid Leadership, he'd forbid it as a bonus feat as well. I know some people don't like it (I even have notes on alternative versions of the feat I may publish someday), but as long as it's a core part of the rules I plan to keep putting it forward where appropriate thematically,. To do otherwise is to cheat the people who like Leadership.
But more of a problem is the removal of the prerequisite. What exactly does leadership do for a level 1 character?
Doesn't matter, since you can't take it before 2nd level.
All the charisma and positive modifiers in the world still wont give you a cohort (unless there is such a thing as a level -1 character). There should be some explanation as to what this talent gives at low levels, or it should keep the normal leadership prereq in place.
Ah, I see your objection. I presume everyone is familiar with the CR adjustment rules, which say if you adjust a CR to 0 or less, it instead becomes fractional. Apply those rules to cohorts. So a 2nd level character can have at most a CR 1/2 cohort, which happens to be the CR of a 1st level NPC-class character. Or, use The Genius Guide to Apprentice-Level Characters (or if you prefer, Marc Radle's recent Learning Curse: Apprentice-Level Characters) and just make 1/2 level heroic characters.
That idea and the math behind it is so second nature with the people I play and playtest, it didn't occur to me someone else might be flummoxed by it. Of course it only matters if you happen to take that as your very first talent, but I suppose a quick note of explanation would have been a good idea.
4. Devotion: Is this really neccesary?
Of course not. That's why it's optional, instead of a built-in power. And play style is going to have a lot to do with its appeal. But one objection I very, very often hear about playing paladins, and even clerics, is that GMs sometimes give a player no warning when the player's view of what's reasonable to do in the name of a god and the HM's vary. Sometimes vary significantly. This gives you a warning even if your GM normally doesn't. That's in keeping with the idea that templars are less high-impact on the psyche of the player that paladins. Some people want more of a safety net than others.
It also gives you a second saving throw against spells that compel you to be naughty, which is great if you're fighting the Mindslavers of Yag-Faurhl, and is worth it to some people on that basis alone. If it's not worth it to a given player, they won't take it.
5. Mantra's: Since they are their durations measured from the beggining of the recitation (the standard action) or the end? For instance. Lets say A level 2 Templar has Mantra of Ecstasy, on his turn he recites the mantra. When does the bonus end? At the start of his next turn or at the end?
Whatever answer you use for the same basic question with bardic fascinate, inspire courage, and so on, use here.
6. Mantra of Leadership: Doesnt this step on the bard's toes a bit? It would seem this is considerably better then inspire competance, since it could presumably be continued endlessly (withe recurring standard actions) and the bonus will be considerably higher since wisdom is a primary stat for the Templar. Granted the bard doesnt need to continue to use standard actions, but for helping the party achieve some skill based task this is WAY better.
I think it's a toss-up, to be honest. A templar wants a high Wis, but he also wants a high Str, Con, maybe Dex, Int (for skills)... I'm not sure how many will realistically get more than a +2 on their Wisdom, and a lot fewer will have +3 or +4. And, as you say, it's time consuming for the templar, which isn't always a good option. And the templar must be seen & heard, as opposed to just hearing the bard. So is this sometimes going to be better, as a talent you must select, that one of the 5 things a bard can do by 3rd level, not counting spells? Sure, maybe. And I'm okay with that.
7. I have the same problem I had with the godling's nemesis option with the 3rd temple bond option. The bonus is all well and good, but with no obvious way to obvious way to determine an enemy's alignment, its going to lead to alot of confusion at the table as to whether or not the bonus applies.
As long as the GM knows, I've never found it to be a problem. It's exactly the same as the ranger's favored enemy bonus to Perception and Survival. If the GM asks you to make a Perception check, you normally have no way of knowing what you are making it for, because you haven't perceived it yet. So people end up saying "Perception 16, 18 against gnolls, 22 against oozes" and the GM tells them the end result.
Obviously if a group find it problematic, they can forbid it – it's not the strongest of the 3 options IMHO. But it's great for having your Chaotic Neutral templar of freedom level some hate on Lawful Evil tyrants.
8. Regarding the master templar ability to grant abilities. Is the 1+wisdom limit a per day or at a time limit? Meaning can you use this ability an unlimited amount of times so long as there are never more then 1+wisdom targets using it at once?
Okay, that is fuzzy writing on my part. That's the total number he can pass them out to at a time. If he switches, he could give a bunch of different people bonuses each day, but no more than wis +1 at a time.
9. What is the range on the darkvision granted by the Beast Sense ability of the animal order?
60 feet.
10. Hmmm Templars with the Charm Order would make rather good investigators for a church. Interesting. I may have to make use of that one.
Sure! Also great for infiltration of an enemy position.
11. There is a typo on page 8 in the Healing Order Ability:
Yep!
"The amount of fast healing granted by this ability increases to fast healing 2 at 3rd level, and by an additional 1 every 3 templar levels thereafter (6th, 9th, 12th, and so on)."
12. I like the liberation ability. Martial characters who can grant themselves freedom of movement become a lot more useful at higher levels.
Yeah, even a templar who doesn't end up casting spells has some great tricks to help survive the difficulties of higher-level play.
Over all I really like this product. The variety offered in the orders (due to the variety of domains and gods) is imense and can create a wide variety of characters. My only disappointment is that it is wisdom based instead of charisma based. I like charismatic characters and there are precious few classes that give a mechanical reason to boost charisma. The paladin is ofcourse one of those, and so I was hoping the templar would follow suite. Its certainly not a deal breaker though, and there will likely soon be templars enforcing the will of their gods in my game world.
You certainly could change them to be Cha-based, or even Int-based, without breaking anything.
That said, one of the most important things to me was that a LG tempalr and a paladin could be on the same team and not feel like the suffered massive overlap. Paladins are already leaders in a lot of groups, and I didn't want the two struggling for spotlight time. A high Wisdom templar, on the other hand, is perceptive and a good judge of character (aided in part by his higher skill point total). Coupled with the fact Clrics are mostly Wisdom based and I liked the break down. Clerics want Wisdom and Charisma. Paladins took Charisma. Templars took Wisdom.
Kolokotroni wrote:
7. I have the same problem I had with the godling's nemesis option with the 3rd temple bond option. The bonus is all well and good, but with no obvious way to obvious way to determine an enemy's alignment, its going to lead to alot of confusion at the table as to whether or not the bonus applies.As long as the GM knows, I've never found it to be a problem. It's exactly the same as the ranger's favored enemy bonus to Perception and Survival. If the GM asks you to make a Perception check, you normally have no way of knowing what you are making it for, because you haven't perceived it yet. So people end up saying "Perception 16, 18 against gnolls, 22 against oozes" and the GM tells them the end result.
Obviously if a group find it problematic, they can forbid it – it's not the strongest of the 3 options IMHO. But it's great for having your Chaotic Neutral templar of freedom level some hate on Lawful Evil tyrants.
I think this may be a playstyle different here in that case. We have a fairly large group (a max of 10, usually 7 at a game). So the less things the gm has to track the better. Specifically in combat (which takes a damn long time with 7-10 players). And while its pretty darn unlikely a ranger couldnt recognize in combat his favored enemy, alignment is a fairly different story. With no way to detect it a player would have to give 2 attack and damage totals to the dm on every attack he or she makes.
Out of combat its not a bid deal the pace is different, in combat though at least for my group its important to keep things flowing, and the player and dm having to remember to add or not add the bonus constantly can be tiresome. A ranger can sort out his favored enemy by sight, a paladin can detect evil, but the godling and templar have no built in way to know to use their bonuses or not.
This is what I get for going over edited manuscripts while high on egg nog."Although clerics are servants of their gods, and paladins are holy warriors devoted to the greater good, neither is the dedicated warrior fighting first and foremost for a specific church or religion. The templar fills this role, and in different lands may be called bannerets, champions, gallants, kirks, or warders."
Well i did offer to be a proof reader a while back, you should have taken me up on it. Though I still dont see what people see in egg nog, foul stuff if you ask me. Hope you enjoyed it at least.
I already have a few npcs sketched out for templars. They fit rather neatly into my current campaign in which the main antagonists are followers of asmodeus. The antipalidin doesnt really fit the Lawful Evil theme, but the templar sure does.
I've purchased but not read it yet. From this discussion, it sounds like one way to describe the difference between a Paladin and a Templar is to say:
The Templar is an agent of a particular sect of a religion, bound to serve them. Different factions worshipping the same deity/deities could have rival temples, and the Templars serving each could be somewhat hostile to each other due to their allegiance to their preferred sect/faction.
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The Templar is an agent of a particular sect of a religion, bound to serve them. Different factions worshipping the same deity/deities could have rival temples, and the Templars serving each could be somewhat hostile to each other due to their allegiance to their preferred sect/faction.
While it's not required you set things up that way, it's absolutely possible to do so.
The Templar is an agent of a particular sect of a religion, bound to serve them. Different factions worshipping the same deity/deities could have rival temples, and the Templars serving each could be somewhat hostile to each other due to their allegiance to their preferred sect/faction.While it's not required you set things up that way, it's absolutely possible to do so.
This discussion was very insightful. Also tips the balance on my interest for this one, which i was lukewarm to at first. (I didn't see a void to be filled and have no problems with the paladins being LG only.) Added to cart.
I had some time to read it lightly today.
First, I agree whole-heartedly on the "why there are no Paladins of other alignments" interpretation. The validity of that in an game world is predicated on accepting the idea of Paladins serving Law and Good more than a deity, but if you accept that then the rest of the logic makes sense. It is how I have long run my homebrew.
Aside from that...
While it's not required you set things up that way, it's absolutely possible to do so.
Yes, I realize it is not necessary to do it that way. Having been an admirer of the Birthright setting, though, where religious organizations serving the same deity can be enemies for political (and doctrinal) reasons, I see the Templar as an agent more deeply embroiled in the politics than a Paladin would be. Leading the forces guarding a Temple stronghold, or acting as an agent of his sect/ branch/ religion to further its goals makes sense to me.
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This discussion was very insightful. Also tips the balance on my interest for this one, which i was lukewarm to at first. (I didn't see a void to be filled and have no problems with the paladins being LG only.) Added to cart.
For the record, I also have no problem with paladins being LG. Indeed, in many ways it is because I like LG-only paladins I was driven to create the templar. Less because there was a void to be filled, than an opportunity to explore. My own internal view of divine politics suggested to me that there ought to be at least some gods who have no need for paladins, but do see the benefit of divinely-sanctified warriors to defend their faithful and carry out their agendas. Essentially a warrior-agent, as opposed to clerical spellcasting-agents.
Coupled with a general sense that other people also found the idea of an any-alignment, any-god holy warrior that wasn't just a paladin with powers tied to different alignments interesting, and the templar was born.
First, I agree whole-heartedly on the "why there are no Paladins of other alignments" interpretation. The validity of that in an game world is predicated on accepting the idea of Paladins serving Law and Good more than a deity, but if you accept that then the rest of the logic makes sense. It is how I have long run my homebrew.
Yeah, that argument is far from the only way to see paladins. In fact, ti was the realization that I had a very specific, and far from universal, idea on why LG-only paladins made sense (and that it colored my design for the templar) that led me to conclude I should outline that logic. I did so as much to show people what was going on behind the curtain as to propose it as an in-game philosophy. I am glad to find it makes sense to a lot of other gamers. Indeed, I'm not at all surprised to find it's exactly what a lot of other GMs have been doing (I don't expect to be a unique snowflake), though it's also been nice to get so many GMs writing directly to me saying how much sense paladins make to them now, when they didn't beforehand.
Yes, I realize it is not necessary to do it that way. Having been an admirer of the Birthright setting, though, where religious organizations serving the same deity can be enemies for political (and doctrinal) reasons, I see the Templar as an agent more deeply embroiled in the politics than a Paladin would be. Leading the forces guarding a Temple stronghold, or acting as an agent of his sect/ branch/ religion to further its goals makes sense to me.
While it's not required you set things up that way, it's absolutely possible to do so.
I thought that was where you were coming from, and that's how they're likely to see use in my campaigns as well. I just wanted to be clear for other people reading the thread. to be clear, I like your take on templars.
With that said, I think I might be picking the PDF up. I have always hated the very idea of anti-paladins (My biggest gripe with the APG is their inclusion in it), but can see the concept of agents of other deities.
My anti-paladin gripe is that to me, the core of a paladin is selflessness. The willingness to devote themselves to something else that they feel is greater than they are is to me, part of the core of the class concept. Evil, on the other hand is almost always based on selfishness. The two concepts are mutually exclusive.
The other part is that there are plenty of other things evil people get. Sell your soul and gain incredible power overnight, hordes of undead, assassins, ect. Most of these aren't duplicated by the good guys, so why do paladins need to be duplicated by the villains? Not everything needs to have an exact opposite on the other side of the alignment scale.
Try reading about Prince Gaynor the Damned. Michael Moorcock. The incarnation of the Eternal Champion who betrayed Law for the love of a woman (?). Damned for eternity to serve Chaos. A "good" example of a Paladin who betrayed his cause and served the other side. I can see a Paladin being "turned". You don't have to have numerous Anti-Paladins, the occasional fallen Paladin gone rogue is a good use of the variant.
I replaced Paladins with home brewed Templars in 3.5. I'm looking over this one for ideas and using the Paladin and Ant-Paladin as well...
Try reading about Prince Gaynor the Damned. Michael Moorcock. The incarnation of the Eternal Champion who betrayed Law for the love of a woman (?). Damned for eternity to serve Chaos. A "good" example of a Paladin who betrayed his cause and served the other side. I can see a Paladin being "turned". You don't have to have numerous Anti-Paladins, the occasional fallen Paladin gone rogue is a good use of the variant.That to me says Blackguard prestige class rather than Anti-Paladin base class. In some ways it is similar to the death knight. The powers get reversed as a constant reminder of what they once were, making the punishment much worse.
For me, the Blackguard and Anti-Paladin fullfil much the same role -- a fallen Paladin. Six of one and a half dozen of the other. They dropped the Blackguard from PF to make room for the Anti-Paladin iirc.
And, there is something of a dualistic harmony to it in either case whether it was Blackguard or Anti-Paladin. Opposites at extreme alignment ends. But, I find opposing base classes to be more fitting for this...
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And, there is something of a dualistic harmony to it in either case whether it was Blackguard or Anti-Paladin. Opposites at extreme alignment ends. But, I find opposing base classes to be more fitting for this...
Actually, I like both the idea of an anti-paladin base class, and a blackguard PrC. But for me, the Blackguard would be much more a generic servant of all that is anarchy and pain, and be as useful to a CE sorcerer as a CE fighter or fallen paladin.
But for the templar, my objective was to provide a base class that serves for the fighting role the same kind of customizable servant of the gods as the cleric is for the spellcaster role. And I wanted tempalrs to both be able to work alongside paladins and anti-paladins (serving a similar role but doing it differently, much as you can have both clerics and druids), and be able to replace them if a campaign preferred to avoid either paladins or anti-paladins.
I threw some Death/Water and War/Water tempalrs at my players in the Silken Sails of Kor kammor game. They were awesome foes! And, I strongly suspect I'm going to have a templar PC or two if any more PCs die this weekend!
Thanks for the perfect class for divine fighters who aren't all insane baby-eater psychopath anti-paladins!
I am now a contributing reviewer at the well-received ste Robot viking. My intro is here: http://www.robotviking.com/2011/01/03/introducing-robot-vikings-new-grrrl-o f-mystery/
And my first review is for the Genius Guide to the Templar, here: http://www.robotviking.com/2011/01/03/genius-guide-to-templars-bridges-the- gap-between-paladin-and-cleric/
And I have many more Pathfinder-compatible reviews planned for the year!
Fixed the links.
Okay I hate, hate, hate to derail a product thread, but:
A: Thank you!
B: How do you DO that?! I may have a lot more links this year, and I cant ask you to fix every post I make!
Fixed the links.Okay I hate, hate, hate to derail a product thread, but:
A: Thank you!
B: How do you DO that?! I may have a lot more links this year, and I cant ask you to fix every post I make!
Just bellow the post window there is a button marked BBCode tags you can use: "Show" It gives you alls sorts of specific goodies.
But specifically for links you use this notation
Open bracked "[" then 'url=http://url.com' close bracket ']' then a description of the link here then '[' '/url' ']'
Obviously exclude all the quotes and descriptive text above, i just included it to keep from triggering the tags and posting some random link
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Fixed the links.Okay I hate, hate, hate to derail a product thread, but:
A: Thank you!
B: How do you DO that?! I may have a lot more links this year, and I cant ask you to fix every post I make!
Your Welcome and Kol covered how to do it, as he said there is a lot of sample BBCode tags if you click show.
Fixed the links.Okay I hate, hate, hate to derail a product thread, but:New rule: anyone who writes a review of one of our products gets to "derail" a thread discussing it by asking one, polite, reasonable question.
You are now covered. And thanks for the review!
My first instinct was to pull apart this new rule and find out the specifics (such as required ratio of review to derailing questions), but instead since this isn't a question, I will just point out that I am putting together a templar villain to replace an existing npc that my players will face this weekend. A templar devoted to asmodeus and a member of the Hellknights. I am trying to decide how well templar will mix with the hell knight prc at the moment. I look forward to trying this class out.
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I will just point out that I am putting together a templar villain to replace an existing npc that my players will face this weekend. A templar devoted to asmodeus and a member of the Hellknights. I am trying to decide how well templar will mix with the hell knight prc at the moment. I look forward to trying this class out.
How'd it go?